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Considering this is open source (which I'm assuming includes the plugins), wouldn't this be a much better alternative to the native apps on mobile? Curious as t

Considering this is open source (which I'm assuming includes the plugins), wouldn't this be a much better alternative to the native apps on mobile? Curious as to why this hasn't been ported to Android/iOS. I'd much prefer this over apps that need permission to my blood type to function. Pidgin was great back in the day for convenience, but there is a legitimate argument to be made for privacy here too. EDIT: It just occurred to me that this would probably work on linux phones. Anyone with a Pinephone or Librem 5 tried this?

mr_gibbins 6y ago
If it were ported to Android/iOS, it'd need to adhere to the relevant standards from Google/Apple. If it did (and that's a hard task itself, see every other 'Google/Apple blocked my app' thread on HN) then it'd quickly be squashed by the other major competitors. Can't have a non-monetised, FOSS, universal application available in the app stores! That's like ... that's like COMMUNISM, or something! /s
GlTChWhISKY 6y ago
The simple answer is the developer (Gary) doesnt have the time. The project needs help. Rwgrim on twitch is the lead dev
- Implicated 6y ago
  https://www.twitch.tv/rw_grim https://www.twitch.tv/rw_grim
fattire 6y ago
For whatever reason I kind of remember Gaim/Adium/Pidgin/libpurple had a run of security issues back in the day too.. I assume that stuff got fixed up by now... but I think at the time that accounted for its decline. Oh, now that I think of it wasn't XMPP (streaming XML) originally invented for Jabber which Pidgin supported?
sneak 6y ago
iOS applications aren't allowed to stay awake constantly talking to a bunch of different network services. For iOS IM to work, a centralized server (and corresponding developer ID) has to send a notification to you, sent first to Apple to be proxied via Apple's push notification service (APNS) to which each iOS device maintains a persistent connection. This means that some third party service has to know when you get a message (and thus needs to proxy your connections to the IM services, and know your credentials and see your message contents) to be able to know when to send that notification. This (and Signal now replacing the cryptographically shattered iMessage) is probably the main reason I'm switching to Android; truly decentralized/private notifications aren't really possible on iOS. They have to come from the app developer's own 24/7 online servers, sent from them to you via Apple servers, which means that federated stuff is basically out without providing your login details to the developer (which of course lets them see all your messages). This is also why almost no ActivityPub/fediverse clients can notify you of DMs on iOS either if you run your own instance. I know there's Background App Refresh now that lets apps wake up periodically to download stuff; I'm not sure if such polling can fire off notifications from the local app. It's probably too much latency for IM, however, due to the fact that Background App Refresh isn't (last I looked) allowed to run continuously (for battery reasons).
- novok 6y ago
  You can create local notifications any time your app is active, which includes the background. AFAIK signal does empty APNS push to wake and then pulls data with it's own connection and then displays text content with a local notification. The main reason for the restriction to apple-only for notification services is battery life, and they've been proven right by bad behavior demonstrated on android. Interestingly, if your a VOIP app you can actually circumvent a lot of the background networking restrictions, but it's still hard to do when you don't have an active call in place. You also have to be an actual VOIP app to get approved with that entitlement. Which wouldn't be hard to get approval for if you made a fork of signal for example, since it does have real VOIP capabilities inside. Either way the battery life of your device would be worse with your custom VOIP app always keeping a connection open vs. apple's native OS notification system.
MrAlex94 6y ago
Not sure if this has changed, but at least on why it's not on iOS [1]: > In a nutshell, the Apple Developer Agreement is the biggest "problem" preventing a Pidgin build for iOS devices. We won't quote the exact text here, but the Agreement requires that developers allow Apple to impose additional restrictions on applications above and beyond the application's own license. Among these additional restrictions are the well-known "5-device limit" and a prohibition on redistribution of the application. It is also quite clear from the terms of the Agreement that the developer of an application is not the distributor of the application in the App Store--Apple is. > The additional restrictions required by Apple directly violate the GPL Pidgin is licensed under (Pidgin is licensed as "GPLv2 or later," and cannot transition to GPLv3 for a number of reasons not suited for this topic). GPLv2 forbids adding restrictions above and beyond those included in the GPL's own text, thus any distribution via Apple's App Store is a direct violation of the GPL. This is the root of the problem. https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/WhyNoiOSVersion https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/WhyNoiOSVersion
- andai 6y ago
  With such a commitment to free software, isn't it a bit ironic they ported it to Windows?
  - Macha 6y ago
    Anyone can build and run their own software on Windows, so distributing software for Windows is not a GPL violation, whereas distributing iOS apps via the app store runs afoul of the anti-tivo clauses in GPL3
  - moistbar 6y ago
    If Windows doesn't impose those restrictions, it makes more sense to port it there than to MacOS.
  - mywittyname 6y ago
    No, it's not ironic. Windows imposes no such limitation on developers. Microsoft certainly doesn't assume exclusive rights to distribution of every piece of software that can be installed on Windows.
gogopuppygogo 6y ago
Have you seen the latest review of the Librem 5 from Linus Tech Tips? The phone seems to run Linux apps fine... it doesn’t have working camera drivers a year after release though... https://youtu.be/BH8DRyKUZDg https://youtu.be/BH8DRyKUZDg So Pidgin (gaim for those of us old enough to remember those days) should run fine without a port.
- fsflover 6y ago
  > it doesn’t have working camera drivers a year after release though... The problem is the lack of SoC documentation. There is some progress for the camera though: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/issues/44#note_137742 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/issues/44#note_1....
- Rooster61 6y ago
  > should run fine without a port Sure. Was saying that this should work out of the box (at least for the most part) on a linux phone. No port necessary.
- eximius 6y ago
  Hell, I still don't have my damn order and I placed it in Oct. 2017. Their last post said early orders would be completed by EOY, but my last email to support they said another two months. I want to be supportive but holy hell am I frustrated.
mouldysammich 6y ago
Chatty, from librem uses libpurple, which pidgin is built on, for its sms app so it also supports xmpp, i dont think itd be hard to support the other services libpurple supports, i found it pretty easy to add purple-facebook support
bratch 6y ago
It still works great on the Nokia N900! https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/UsingPidgin/N900 https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/UsingPidgin/N900
- anthony_barker 6y ago
  you still use the n900?
  - bratch 6y ago
    All day every day since 2009 :) I've kept an eye on other phones throughout the years, but nothing quite ticks the same boxes (and by far most things aren't even remotely close). There are some other interesting phones on the horizon (Librem, PinePhone), but then again things like Maemo Leste are ready to breathe new life into the N900, so I might be using it for very long time yet!
toast0 6y ago
Background execution restrictions mean you would not be able to be online except when the app was in the foreground for the most part on iOS; on Android, you have inconsistent access to cpu and network in the background. You really need push notifications, but AFAIK, push tokens are tied to the app developer; you can't give an random server a token from your app, because they won't be able to push to you.
- virtue3 6y ago
  Yeah that would be expensive for the pidgin maintainers, if the other message services had a way to do that via oauth or some such that would be different but entirely not in their interests.
dylan-m 6y ago
Pidgin's libpurple library was a core part of Palm's WebOS. They were really focused on integrating different chat services like that. For Librem 5, they're using Telepathy quite heavily, which is similar but designed more as an OS component (and full of XML).
seba_dos1 6y ago
Chatty (the default chat app on the Librem 5) reuses parts of Pidgin's code via libpurple. Also, I've used Pidgin as my main mobile IM client back in the day on the Openmoko Neo Freerunner.

mr_gibbins 6y ago

If it were ported to Android/iOS, it'd need to adhere to the relevant standards from Google/Apple. If it did (and that's a hard task itself, see every other 'Google/Apple blocked my app' thread on HN) then it'd quickly be squashed by the other major competitors. Can't have a non-monetised, FOSS, universal application available in the app stores! That's like ... that's like COMMUNISM, or something! /s

GlTChWhISKY 6y ago

The simple answer is the developer (Gary) doesnt have the time. The project needs help. Rwgrim on twitch is the lead dev

Implicated 6y ago
https://www.twitch.tv/rw_grim https://www.twitch.tv/rw_grim

fattire 6y ago

For whatever reason I kind of remember Gaim/Adium/Pidgin/libpurple had a run of security issues back in the day too.. I assume that stuff got fixed up by now... but I think at the time that accounted for its decline. Oh, now that I think of it wasn't XMPP (streaming XML) originally invented for Jabber which Pidgin supported?

sneak 6y ago

iOS applications aren't allowed to stay awake constantly talking to a bunch of different network services. For iOS IM to work, a centralized server (and corresponding developer ID) has to send a notification to you, sent first to Apple to be proxied via Apple's push notification service (APNS) to which each iOS device maintains a persistent connection. This means that some third party service has to know when you get a message (and thus needs to proxy your connections to the IM services, and know your credentials and see your message contents) to be able to know when to send that notification. This (and Signal now replacing the cryptographically shattered iMessage) is probably the main reason I'm switching to Android; truly decentralized/private notifications aren't really possible on iOS. They have to come from the app developer's own 24/7 online servers, sent from them to you via Apple servers, which means that federated stuff is basically out without providing your login details to the developer (which of course lets them see all your messages). This is also why almost no ActivityPub/fediverse clients can notify you of DMs on iOS either if you run your own instance. I know there's Background App Refresh now that lets apps wake up periodically to download stuff; I'm not sure if such polling can fire off notifications from the local app. It's probably too much latency for IM, however, due to the fact that Background App Refresh isn't (last I looked) allowed to run continuously (for battery reasons).

novok 6y ago
You can create local notifications any time your app is active, which includes the background. AFAIK signal does empty APNS push to wake and then pulls data with it's own connection and then displays text content with a local notification. The main reason for the restriction to apple-only for notification services is battery life, and they've been proven right by bad behavior demonstrated on android. Interestingly, if your a VOIP app you can actually circumvent a lot of the background networking restrictions, but it's still hard to do when you don't have an active call in place. You also have to be an actual VOIP app to get approved with that entitlement. Which wouldn't be hard to get approval for if you made a fork of signal for example, since it does have real VOIP capabilities inside. Either way the battery life of your device would be worse with your custom VOIP app always keeping a connection open vs. apple's native OS notification system.

MrAlex94 6y ago

Not sure if this has changed, but at least on why it's not on iOS [1]: > In a nutshell, the Apple Developer Agreement is the biggest "problem" preventing a Pidgin build for iOS devices. We won't quote the exact text here, but the Agreement requires that developers allow Apple to impose additional restrictions on applications above and beyond the application's own license. Among these additional restrictions are the well-known "5-device limit" and a prohibition on redistribution of the application. It is also quite clear from the terms of the Agreement that the developer of an application is not the distributor of the application in the App Store--Apple is. > The additional restrictions required by Apple directly violate the GPL Pidgin is licensed under (Pidgin is licensed as "GPLv2 or later," and cannot transition to GPLv3 for a number of reasons not suited for this topic). GPLv2 forbids adding restrictions above and beyond those included in the GPL's own text, thus any distribution via Apple's App Store is a direct violation of the GPL. This is the root of the problem. https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/WhyNoiOSVersion https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/WhyNoiOSVersion

andai 6y ago
With such a commitment to free software, isn't it a bit ironic they ported it to Windows?
- Macha 6y ago
  Anyone can build and run their own software on Windows, so distributing software for Windows is not a GPL violation, whereas distributing iOS apps via the app store runs afoul of the anti-tivo clauses in GPL3
- moistbar 6y ago
  If Windows doesn't impose those restrictions, it makes more sense to port it there than to MacOS.
- mywittyname 6y ago
  No, it's not ironic. Windows imposes no such limitation on developers. Microsoft certainly doesn't assume exclusive rights to distribution of every piece of software that can be installed on Windows.

gogopuppygogo 6y ago

Have you seen the latest review of the Librem 5 from Linus Tech Tips? The phone seems to run Linux apps fine... it doesn’t have working camera drivers a year after release though... https://youtu.be/BH8DRyKUZDg https://youtu.be/BH8DRyKUZDg So Pidgin (gaim for those of us old enough to remember those days) should run fine without a port.

fsflover 6y ago
> it doesn’t have working camera drivers a year after release though... The problem is the lack of SoC documentation. There is some progress for the camera though: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/issues/44#note_137742 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/linux-next/-/issues/44#note_1....
Rooster61 6y ago
> should run fine without a port Sure. Was saying that this should work out of the box (at least for the most part) on a linux phone. No port necessary.
eximius 6y ago
Hell, I still don't have my damn order and I placed it in Oct. 2017. Their last post said early orders would be completed by EOY, but my last email to support they said another two months. I want to be supportive but holy hell am I frustrated.

mouldysammich 6y ago

Chatty, from librem uses libpurple, which pidgin is built on, for its sms app so it also supports xmpp, i dont think itd be hard to support the other services libpurple supports, i found it pretty easy to add purple-facebook support

bratch 6y ago

It still works great on the Nokia N900! https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/UsingPidgin/N900 https://developer.pidgin.im/wiki/UsingPidgin/N900

anthony_barker 6y ago
you still use the n900?
- bratch 6y ago
  All day every day since 2009 :) I've kept an eye on other phones throughout the years, but nothing quite ticks the same boxes (and by far most things aren't even remotely close). There are some other interesting phones on the horizon (Librem, PinePhone), but then again things like Maemo Leste are ready to breathe new life into the N900, so I might be using it for very long time yet!

toast0 6y ago

Background execution restrictions mean you would not be able to be online except when the app was in the foreground for the most part on iOS; on Android, you have inconsistent access to cpu and network in the background. You really need push notifications, but AFAIK, push tokens are tied to the app developer; you can't give an random server a token from your app, because they won't be able to push to you.

virtue3 6y ago
Yeah that would be expensive for the pidgin maintainers, if the other message services had a way to do that via oauth or some such that would be different but entirely not in their interests.

dylan-m 6y ago

Pidgin's libpurple library was a core part of Palm's WebOS. They were really focused on integrating different chat services like that. For Librem 5, they're using Telepathy quite heavily, which is similar but designed more as an OS component (and full of XML).

seba_dos1 6y ago

Chatty (the default chat app on the Librem 5) reuses parts of Pidgin's code via libpurple. Also, I've used Pidgin as my main mobile IM client back in the day on the Openmoko Neo Freerunner.