3 ms·

I'm not from america, and I really don't agree with the politics of either american party. But as someone who values democracy, I have to be honest about there

I'm not from america, and I really don't agree with the politics of either american party. But as someone who values democracy, I have to be honest about there being a huge difference between the two american paries, especially since trump. (But arguably since nixon). Sure, I agree that there are lots of emotions everywhere, and people are attacking trump & followers for both valid and invalid reasons, but using the invalid ones to smooth over the valid ones is in my mind (atleast) as bad as the irrational attacks. To go back to an earlier post in this comment chain, this is the reason why I think that starting a post with "I dislike trump, but.." is a good thing, so that one can criticize the irrational attacks without smoothing over the rational ones. Also, I don't think intelligence has much to do with this, but rather: https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/how-cognitive-bias-can-explain-post-truth/ https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/how-cognitive-bias-can-ex...

aww_dang 6y ago
My somewhat heterodox political views and the criticisms they inform would be tangential at best. I don't agree that I'm smoothing over anything here. That said, I don't think it would be any less rational for someone to support Trump than support Biden. Assuming that all Trump supporters are somehow more irrational than others, that we could filter posts for rationality based upon proximity to Trump is troublesome. People don't have to be less intelligent to be victims of media manipulations. Carlin, the American comedian was being glib. I'm something of a news junkie. I observe the drama in the same way others might watch a daytime serial. From this view, I have to admire the craftsmanship that goes into spinning and developing media narratives, the way they expertly play upon the heart-strings of the masses. Often times the viewers are all too willing to indulge their outrage. Putting aside the concept of intelligence entirely, the masses who have little time or curiosity to observe the news in-depth, are poorly matched against the master propagandists. They've had decades to hone their craft. As you say, you're concerned about the status of democracy in the US. Yet here comes the new narrative of domestic terrorism, buoyed by the same fears expressed in this thread. The masses are outraged. The image of Trump as a Hitler-like figure has been burned into their minds by repeated invocations of Godwin's law. After repeating this ad nauseam, Biden now proclaims that Trump is like Goebbels, “You say the lie long enough, keep repeating it, repeating it, repeating it, it becomes common knowledge” Even I have been called a Nazi for challenging what I see as irrational. Posters here have insisted that I check my privilege in regards to race. All of this without knowing my identity, race or experiences. While I share your concern about civil society devolving, I see it as coming as a reaction to Trumpism. The intolerance is easy to see from where I stand, and I'm no fan of Trump. The comparison to ISIS is part and parcel of this intolerance. I find it somewhat ironic that you appeal to valuing democracy (I read that as civil society) while indulging the assumptions and fears I've outlined above. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-joseph-goebbels-422047 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-jos... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brgZSzmAA3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brgZSzmAA3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnA-ghhW_WI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnA-ghhW_WI
- pelliphant 6y ago
  supporting trump is only less rational if one values democracy. I know that you are never ever supposed to compare someone with nazis, and if you do, you automatically lose. But isn't there a point where someone can act like a nazi to the degree that it becomes dishonest to not call them a nazi? When trump repeatedly lies about the election being stolen, is it really that far-fetched to make that comparison? I can fully understand that you dislike that people on the internet compare trump supporters to isis supporters, but using that to make the both sides are the same argument is really farfetched. America has some serious problems, and it's democracy is really flawed, but it is still a democracy. If you want to mend the country you can't have half the country living in an alternate reality. Truth isn't something you can compromize away just to avoid being "partisan". Since you used the words watch and viewers in relation to news, I can recomend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
  - aww_dang 6y ago
    Even Godwin allowed for that exception to his rule. The problem I see is when you drill down to the source on these comparisons, there's no there there. Like anything else in the media, the facts are highly distorted to fit partisan ends. Transcripts of his statements contrast starkly with widespread misconceptions about what was said. When I've challenged partisans on these discrepancies they'll claim, "Yes, but we know what he _really_ meant" From that point, you can't argue using evidence. Widespread delusions are more powerful... 'Truth' or at least the will to perceive and the perception of it has become highly partisan. In regards to censorious intolerance, both sides are not the same. We are supposed to value democracy, (tyranny of the masses?) yet we can't trust individuals to consume or digest information without hand-holding from partisan fact checkers. If we are concerned about democracy, this should be problematic. These are themes of technocracy, not democracy. It isn't important to me to establish equivalence. That's not what I am working towards here. I'm attempting illustrate what I see as mass hysteria, widely held delusions. The Hitler comparisons, a common form of hyperbole are part of that.

aww_dang 6y ago

My somewhat heterodox political views and the criticisms they inform would be tangential at best. I don't agree that I'm smoothing over anything here. That said, I don't think it would be any less rational for someone to support Trump than support Biden. Assuming that all Trump supporters are somehow more irrational than others, that we could filter posts for rationality based upon proximity to Trump is troublesome. People don't have to be less intelligent to be victims of media manipulations. Carlin, the American comedian was being glib. I'm something of a news junkie. I observe the drama in the same way others might watch a daytime serial. From this view, I have to admire the craftsmanship that goes into spinning and developing media narratives, the way they expertly play upon the heart-strings of the masses. Often times the viewers are all too willing to indulge their outrage. Putting aside the concept of intelligence entirely, the masses who have little time or curiosity to observe the news in-depth, are poorly matched against the master propagandists. They've had decades to hone their craft. As you say, you're concerned about the status of democracy in the US. Yet here comes the new narrative of domestic terrorism, buoyed by the same fears expressed in this thread. The masses are outraged. The image of Trump as a Hitler-like figure has been burned into their minds by repeated invocations of Godwin's law. After repeating this ad nauseam, Biden now proclaims that Trump is like Goebbels, “You say the lie long enough, keep repeating it, repeating it, repeating it, it becomes common knowledge” Even I have been called a Nazi for challenging what I see as irrational. Posters here have insisted that I check my privilege in regards to race. All of this without knowing my identity, race or experiences. While I share your concern about civil society devolving, I see it as coming as a reaction to Trumpism. The intolerance is easy to see from where I stand, and I'm no fan of Trump. The comparison to ISIS is part and parcel of this intolerance. I find it somewhat ironic that you appeal to valuing democracy (I read that as civil society) while indulging the assumptions and fears I've outlined above. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-joseph-goebbels-422047 https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/26/joe-biden-trump-jos... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brgZSzmAA3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brgZSzmAA3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnA-ghhW_WI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnA-ghhW_WI

pelliphant 6y ago
supporting trump is only less rational if one values democracy. I know that you are never ever supposed to compare someone with nazis, and if you do, you automatically lose. But isn't there a point where someone can act like a nazi to the degree that it becomes dishonest to not call them a nazi? When trump repeatedly lies about the election being stolen, is it really that far-fetched to make that comparison? I can fully understand that you dislike that people on the internet compare trump supporters to isis supporters, but using that to make the both sides are the same argument is really farfetched. America has some serious problems, and it's democracy is really flawed, but it is still a democracy. If you want to mend the country you can't have half the country living in an alternate reality. Truth isn't something you can compromize away just to avoid being "partisan". Since you used the words watch and viewers in relation to news, I can recomend: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
- aww_dang 6y ago
  Even Godwin allowed for that exception to his rule. The problem I see is when you drill down to the source on these comparisons, there's no there there. Like anything else in the media, the facts are highly distorted to fit partisan ends. Transcripts of his statements contrast starkly with widespread misconceptions about what was said. When I've challenged partisans on these discrepancies they'll claim, "Yes, but we know what he _really_ meant" From that point, you can't argue using evidence. Widespread delusions are more powerful... 'Truth' or at least the will to perceive and the perception of it has become highly partisan. In regards to censorious intolerance, both sides are not the same. We are supposed to value democracy, (tyranny of the masses?) yet we can't trust individuals to consume or digest information without hand-holding from partisan fact checkers. If we are concerned about democracy, this should be problematic. These are themes of technocracy, not democracy. It isn't important to me to establish equivalence. That's not what I am working towards here. I'm attempting illustrate what I see as mass hysteria, widely held delusions. The Hitler comparisons, a common form of hyperbole are part of that.