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The problem is that restrictions are not thought through. If they were banned from using Android altogether, they wouldn't be able (legally) to port it on that

The problem is that restrictions are not thought through. If they were banned from using Android altogether, they wouldn't be able (legally) to port it on that architecture in the first place. The same goes with the RISC-V as well - the law could be written to allow only certain countries to use it freely. These obstacles are kind of similar to patents. When you discover something and then you learn someone was first to patent it, you have to invent your own thing, so in this regard these embargos are just an inconvenience rather than a real instrument to force another country to behave in a civilised way. I wonder how authors of RISC-V must feel when their architecture is being appropriated by a country that violates human rights. Is that in the spirit of the free license?

zamadatix 6y ago
If a country isn't willing to honor human rights why do you think they'll honor some foreign group's license.txt when it comes down to it?
- varispeed 6y ago
  The products containing code or chips that are not allowed could be incorporated in the same regime as illegal drugs - so trading or possessing a device with such operating system or technology could be deemed illegal.
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    I'm more talking the 1.4 billion people in China that need CPUs when you try to tell them they can't use ARM or RISC or etc. not the 330 million in the US that want something manufactured. We've already import restricted Android devices from e.g. Huawei, it has had no impact to their need for CPU designs for them though.
    - varispeed 6y ago
      So if it is their internal market, because of how big they are, there is nothing that you can do unfortunately. Only impose further sanctions that will eventually escalate to a war. In that sense China won, because no country can afford to stand up against them in a meaningful way.
littlestymaar 6y ago
You cannot legally ban them from using Android. Google play store and other proprietary apps, sure, but the actual android OS is free software. > The same goes with the RISC-V as well - the law could be written to allow only certain countries to use it freely And how would the US enforce such a law abroad? Even admitting that European countries (UK included), Japan, South Korea, and most of latin America decided to pass similar laws to pleasure the US, how are the US supposed to enforce that in China (and their growing area of influence, in Africa and Central Asia)? > I wonder how authors of RISC-V must feel when their architecture is being appropriated by a country that violates human rights. Is that in the spirit of the free license? Unfortunately, countries not violating the human rights are too few to be a viable market (and the US is definitely not one of them). Also, what zamadatix said.
- varispeed 6y ago
  They could copy and paste laws that are used for illegal drugs enforcement - just replace drugs with Android from China and then force other countries to support that.
  - littlestymaar 6y ago
    > They could copy and paste laws that are used for illegal drugs enforcement Given how well it worked, I'm not sure it's a great path to follow… > then force other countries to support that. Well, that's where it becomes interesting. Where are those countries supposed to get their Android phones from? Samsung cannot double their Android phone production. And what if China responded by not allowing the China-made iPhones to be shipped abroad? Geopolitics is a tough topic, and even as powerful as they are, the US can't just control everything directly. And on most actions, they can only pull the trigger once.
    - varispeed 6y ago
      Just to be clear - I am not advocating that, just I am thinking out loud what not-right-in-the-head politicians (as they usually are) could do to get that way. The easiest way is to apply the same framework to a different thing and then hope it will come to an equilibrium by itself eventually. For that you would also need a good chunk of propaganda in the tune of drugs are bad, just say no, saying phones from China are bad and then subsidise companies who are manufacturing in the west and heavily tax stuff with Chinese origin and so on. I am talking about about decade worth of slow transformation. Fortunately for China they are so corrupt just like our politicians, that any attempt to do this could be thwarted with money under the table. They managed to do this with drugs because you had no cartels and any organisation selling or manufacturing drugs wouldn't have enough money to influence the government (and ironically they got so rich because of essentially tax free high margin product that they pay for "war on drugs" to continue). Try that with Apple that essentially can do whatever they like.
dkjaudyeqooe 6y ago
Pedophiles use computers, the internet, encryption, cars, roads, and the products and services of various business to sexually abuse children. How should all the people who built those things feel?
fuoqi 6y ago
>The same goes with the RISC-V as well - the law could be written to allow only certain countries to use it freely. Luckily, the people behind RISC-V were smart enough to protect it as well as they could against politicians using this open technology as a political tool. Not only it uses an open license, but also IP is owned by entity registered in Switzerland, so people and organizations all around the globe can collaborate and use results without being afraid to fall under yet another sanctions, which more often than not are simply a salvo in an ongoing economic warfare.
nickik 6y ago
> I wonder how authors of RISC-V must feel when their architecture is being appropriated by a country that violates human rights. Like the US? Yeah that probably does bother them. I mean the US has killed 1000x more people and was engaged in far, far more wars in the last 50 years. Destabalisng whole regions, overthrowing governments all over the place, supported some of the most vile people ever (and still do). But I guess morality only matters if you are bad to your own population.

zamadatix 6y ago

If a country isn't willing to honor human rights why do you think they'll honor some foreign group's license.txt when it comes down to it?

varispeed 6y ago
The products containing code or chips that are not allowed could be incorporated in the same regime as illegal drugs - so trading or possessing a device with such operating system or technology could be deemed illegal.
- zamadatix 6y ago
  I'm more talking the 1.4 billion people in China that need CPUs when you try to tell them they can't use ARM or RISC or etc. not the 330 million in the US that want something manufactured. We've already import restricted Android devices from e.g. Huawei, it has had no impact to their need for CPU designs for them though.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    So if it is their internal market, because of how big they are, there is nothing that you can do unfortunately. Only impose further sanctions that will eventually escalate to a war. In that sense China won, because no country can afford to stand up against them in a meaningful way.

littlestymaar 6y ago

You cannot legally ban them from using Android. Google play store and other proprietary apps, sure, but the actual android OS is free software. > The same goes with the RISC-V as well - the law could be written to allow only certain countries to use it freely And how would the US enforce such a law abroad? Even admitting that European countries (UK included), Japan, South Korea, and most of latin America decided to pass similar laws to pleasure the US, how are the US supposed to enforce that in China (and their growing area of influence, in Africa and Central Asia)? > I wonder how authors of RISC-V must feel when their architecture is being appropriated by a country that violates human rights. Is that in the spirit of the free license? Unfortunately, countries not violating the human rights are too few to be a viable market (and the US is definitely not one of them). Also, what zamadatix said.

varispeed 6y ago
They could copy and paste laws that are used for illegal drugs enforcement - just replace drugs with Android from China and then force other countries to support that.
- littlestymaar 6y ago
  > They could copy and paste laws that are used for illegal drugs enforcement Given how well it worked, I'm not sure it's a great path to follow… > then force other countries to support that. Well, that's where it becomes interesting. Where are those countries supposed to get their Android phones from? Samsung cannot double their Android phone production. And what if China responded by not allowing the China-made iPhones to be shipped abroad? Geopolitics is a tough topic, and even as powerful as they are, the US can't just control everything directly. And on most actions, they can only pull the trigger once.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    Just to be clear - I am not advocating that, just I am thinking out loud what not-right-in-the-head politicians (as they usually are) could do to get that way. The easiest way is to apply the same framework to a different thing and then hope it will come to an equilibrium by itself eventually. For that you would also need a good chunk of propaganda in the tune of drugs are bad, just say no, saying phones from China are bad and then subsidise companies who are manufacturing in the west and heavily tax stuff with Chinese origin and so on. I am talking about about decade worth of slow transformation. Fortunately for China they are so corrupt just like our politicians, that any attempt to do this could be thwarted with money under the table. They managed to do this with drugs because you had no cartels and any organisation selling or manufacturing drugs wouldn't have enough money to influence the government (and ironically they got so rich because of essentially tax free high margin product that they pay for "war on drugs" to continue). Try that with Apple that essentially can do whatever they like.

dkjaudyeqooe 6y ago

Pedophiles use computers, the internet, encryption, cars, roads, and the products and services of various business to sexually abuse children. How should all the people who built those things feel?

fuoqi 6y ago

>The same goes with the RISC-V as well - the law could be written to allow only certain countries to use it freely. Luckily, the people behind RISC-V were smart enough to protect it as well as they could against politicians using this open technology as a political tool. Not only it uses an open license, but also IP is owned by entity registered in Switzerland, so people and organizations all around the globe can collaborate and use results without being afraid to fall under yet another sanctions, which more often than not are simply a salvo in an ongoing economic warfare.

nickik 6y ago

> I wonder how authors of RISC-V must feel when their architecture is being appropriated by a country that violates human rights. Like the US? Yeah that probably does bother them. I mean the US has killed 1000x more people and was engaged in far, far more wars in the last 50 years. Destabalisng whole regions, overthrowing governments all over the place, supported some of the most vile people ever (and still do). But I guess morality only matters if you are bad to your own population.