4 ms·

Google’s parent firm is shutting down Loon connectivity project

30 points by jmsflknr 6y ago

bsimpson 6y ago
Loon has stepped up to restore internet after disasters like the Puerto Rico earthquake. Sad to see it close.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- sithadmin 6y ago
  Yet if there's a viable alternative such as Starlink in operation to provide backhaul connectivity, it seems like the number of economical use cases for Loon become quite limited. Starlink + ground stations broadcasting wifi/LTE seem like a more durable and affordable option for disaster response.
  - aoki 6y ago
    Realistically, wide area coverage dictates elevated antennas (towers or the equivalent) and a nontrivial amount of power. The point of Loon would have been to be able to restore some mobile capacity without ground logistics. Apparently that use case isn’t enough to close the business case.
siruncledrew 6y ago
Is the presumption satellite internet like Starlink replaces the need for Loon?
- aoki 6y ago
  No, Loon would have provided LTE service in terrestrial mobile spectrum. The big LEO constellations all use fixed satellite service spectrum.
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    “Loon is focused on bringing connectivity to unserved and underserved communities around the world. We are in discussions with telecommunications companies and governments worldwide to provide a solution to help extend internet connectivity to these underserved areas.” LTE was _how_ Loon was doing it, not _what_ Loon set out to do. In 2015 Google invested 900 million in SpaceX to help kick off Starlink for the same goal as Loon https://www.theinformation.com/articles/google-nears-major-investment-in-spacex-to-bolster-satellites https://www.theinformation.com/articles/google-nears-major-i... and now that the Starlink beta has been a success Loon is shutting down. Hard to pass that off as coincidence.
  - patd 6y ago
    There is a company called SpaceMobile backed by Rakuten that claims they can provide 4G from space without changing anything to existing devices. I haven’t been able to find documentation on how it works but as they claim you can do 4G in the middle of the ocean, it can’t be ground stations.
    - aoki 6y ago
      IANAL but my understanding is that commercial access to terrestrial mobile service spectrum from space ought to require legal action (e.g., FCC rulemaking) in essentially all countries. It’s not a use for which that spectrum is allocated by the ITU. The issue is potential interference with terrestrial mobile networks, particularly those in non-approving countries and of non-partner operators. A test over the middle of the ocean may not violate ITU Radio Regulations, but a satellite transmitting over land in a way that interferes with a mobile operator’s network surely does. I looked at some of their recent FCC filings and they seem to say they will be able to manage this using very tight spot beam control. (They will have to work around arbitrary national and operator license borders.) Other than that, they decline to say how this will work, drawing on the theory that they are just a contractor for a terrestrial service who remains liable if they mess up. I’ll be interested to see if that argument flies.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
aaron695 6y ago
We live at a bottom of an ocean. It's a shame we can't get long lasting submersibles to go mainstream, even if it makes sense on paper. Starlink might be a historic inflection point, like the Haber–Bosch process or the internet 1.0, but it won't solve the mobile phone gap. Maybe the market might solve that.

30 points by jmsflknr 6y ago

bsimpson 6y ago

Loon has stepped up to restore internet after disasters like the Puerto Rico earthquake. Sad to see it close.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
sithadmin 6y ago
Yet if there's a viable alternative such as Starlink in operation to provide backhaul connectivity, it seems like the number of economical use cases for Loon become quite limited. Starlink + ground stations broadcasting wifi/LTE seem like a more durable and affordable option for disaster response.
- aoki 6y ago
  Realistically, wide area coverage dictates elevated antennas (towers or the equivalent) and a nontrivial amount of power. The point of Loon would have been to be able to restore some mobile capacity without ground logistics. Apparently that use case isn’t enough to close the business case.

siruncledrew 6y ago

Is the presumption satellite internet like Starlink replaces the need for Loon?

aoki 6y ago
No, Loon would have provided LTE service in terrestrial mobile spectrum. The big LEO constellations all use fixed satellite service spectrum.
- zamadatix 6y ago
  “Loon is focused on bringing connectivity to unserved and underserved communities around the world. We are in discussions with telecommunications companies and governments worldwide to provide a solution to help extend internet connectivity to these underserved areas.” LTE was _how_ Loon was doing it, not _what_ Loon set out to do. In 2015 Google invested 900 million in SpaceX to help kick off Starlink for the same goal as Loon https://www.theinformation.com/articles/google-nears-major-investment-in-spacex-to-bolster-satellites https://www.theinformation.com/articles/google-nears-major-i... and now that the Starlink beta has been a success Loon is shutting down. Hard to pass that off as coincidence.
- patd 6y ago
  There is a company called SpaceMobile backed by Rakuten that claims they can provide 4G from space without changing anything to existing devices. I haven’t been able to find documentation on how it works but as they claim you can do 4G in the middle of the ocean, it can’t be ground stations.
  - aoki 6y ago
    IANAL but my understanding is that commercial access to terrestrial mobile service spectrum from space ought to require legal action (e.g., FCC rulemaking) in essentially all countries. It’s not a use for which that spectrum is allocated by the ITU. The issue is potential interference with terrestrial mobile networks, particularly those in non-approving countries and of non-partner operators. A test over the middle of the ocean may not violate ITU Radio Regulations, but a satellite transmitting over land in a way that interferes with a mobile operator’s network surely does. I looked at some of their recent FCC filings and they seem to say they will be able to manage this using very tight spot beam control. (They will have to work around arbitrary national and operator license borders.) Other than that, they decline to say how this will work, drawing on the theory that they are just a contractor for a terrestrial service who remains liable if they mess up. I’ll be interested to see if that argument flies.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

aaron695 6y ago

We live at a bottom of an ocean. It's a shame we can't get long lasting submersibles to go mainstream, even if it makes sense on paper. Starlink might be a historic inflection point, like the Haber–Bosch process or the internet 1.0, but it won't solve the mobile phone gap. Maybe the market might solve that.