4 ms·

Maybe I'm missing something or I'm too stupid to understand the article but I don't see why anyone should be allowed to sell a new car with old safety standards

by Daho0n 6y ago

Maybe I'm missing something or I'm too stupid to understand the article but I don't see why anyone should be allowed to sell a new car with old safety standards for road use? I'm not from the US so maybe it is yet "Another US Thing I Don't Understand" (sorry). Where I'm at (in Scandinavia) not only would this not be allowed on the roads but even if I buy an old car and want to upgrade it (modern brakes?) it wouldn't be allowed without a car inspection and it would no longer have a cheaper vintage car insurance, registration fees, etc. etc. It would be very costly if at all possible. AFAIK this is equally so in all of the EU. Seems to me this is a giant loophole. Like as if Coca Cola re-released an old recipe with real coke in it and everyone just went "Sure! It's authentic!" Could someone enlighten me?

trhway 6y ago
>Seems to me this is a giant loophole. the key for those loopholes is low volume and similar limits. It allows to start making cars, like Tesla had with original Roadster which otherwise wouldn't be let on the public roads. I think it is a great approach in US to have those limited loopholes in various domains which allow to start making things - such loopholes are absent in for example Russia (my old country) and through the Europe and that affects the entrepreneurship and innovation.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  >that affects the entrepreneurship and innovation. It very likely does but it also saves a lot of peoples lives each day. I mean, not only niche cars, but not having good basic safety in general on the roads. Road fatalities per one billion vehicle km is at 7.3 in the US according to Wikipedia. The worst Scandinavian country is Denmark with 3.9. I guess it comes down to if you want Freedom To Do Stupid Things (like no helmets on a motorcycle). That said, I don't think you can compare a Tesla Roadster to a 1981 car in safety. I agree there should be some allowance for niche cars but 40 year old safety being sold as new?
  - trhway 6y ago
    >Freedom To Do Stupid Things something like this. Though those stupid things aren't niche cars or any other innovations. It is plain old stupidity - US has 10K/year DUI related deaths, Denmark - 75/year, 2x less per capita. Also bigger cars popular in US like trucks - while fully public road certified, they are conceptually and engineering wise are relatively behind the curve - resulting in more deadly accidents.
    - Daho0n 6y ago
      That is a bit surprising to me as Denmark in Scandinavia has a reputation for drinking a lot. I looked up the numbers on Wikipedia and "Pure alcohol consumption among persons (age 15+) in litres per capita per year" is 11.4 in Denmark and 9.2 in the US (same as Sweden). Of course DUI is something else entirely.. TIL.
      - trhway 6y ago
        In US you're officially drunk for driving purposes only upon reaching 0.08% BAC (i.e. "couple beers" is ok) while in many other countries you are drunk for driving purposes upon any alcohol drinking.
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
Currently they're just planning to build cars from the spare parts inventory they bought. Technically they won't be new.
dm319 6y ago
I guess in most countries, you can renovate an old antique car from the 1920s and that's ok for people to drive around in. It's only a small step from that to saying that someone can upgrade an old car with a new engine and sell them. From a government perspective, as long as these cars are niche, they probably don't mind so much. I can go and buy a 1955 Morris Minor fairly easily and it won't have seatbelts, but the assumption is that I would be aware the car doesnt meet modern safety standards.
dharmab 6y ago
In the US we find your road safety laws insane as well. It costs 3x as much to DIY fix your own can there as it does here due to needing "approved parts" and an inspection of every repair. Things that are easy, safe and affordable DIY fixes in the US are impossible there. Your laws are not EU-wide, by the way. Most of the EU doesn't require the approved parts to pass inspection, and only requires the inspection at regular intervals, not after every repair.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  I don't know where you read this but it isn't true. >only requires the inspection at regular intervals, not after every repair. This is how it is in Scandinavian countries too by EU law (well, in EU member states, I don't know about Norway). It is inspection every 4 years or if it is a vintage car (30+ yro) every 8. You also don't need "approved parts" (what does that even mean?) and I can freely buy parts from the US and Germany and use if I want to and have done so (I have a US-only model motorcycle). The manufacture have to get all their car types certified by the state, like how NCAP crash-test one of each model, and if it is certified in one EU country it is in all. But if you change the car significantly (like upgrade an old 80's Trans-Am with modern parts) you have to get it certified all over again for that one car as it is now a unique untested car. Possible but extremely expensive. Sure it doesn't give you the freedom to drive some of the homemade monstrosities some drive in the US but it also doesn't block niche cars or vintage cars.
  - rasz 6y ago
    >You also don't need "approved parts" (what does that even mean?) Germany is really crazy about TUV approving everything down to plastic grill. MCM covered it during their visit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yO1S-zICX4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yO1S-zICX4
rconti 6y ago
Not a giant loophole. A small loophole, for a low volume car. In fact, it's not really a loophole at all, it's the intent of the regulation.

by Daho0n 6y ago

trhway 6y ago

>Seems to me this is a giant loophole. the key for those loopholes is low volume and similar limits. It allows to start making cars, like Tesla had with original Roadster which otherwise wouldn't be let on the public roads. I think it is a great approach in US to have those limited loopholes in various domains which allow to start making things - such loopholes are absent in for example Russia (my old country) and through the Europe and that affects the entrepreneurship and innovation.

Daho0n 6y ago
>that affects the entrepreneurship and innovation. It very likely does but it also saves a lot of peoples lives each day. I mean, not only niche cars, but not having good basic safety in general on the roads. Road fatalities per one billion vehicle km is at 7.3 in the US according to Wikipedia. The worst Scandinavian country is Denmark with 3.9. I guess it comes down to if you want Freedom To Do Stupid Things (like no helmets on a motorcycle). That said, I don't think you can compare a Tesla Roadster to a 1981 car in safety. I agree there should be some allowance for niche cars but 40 year old safety being sold as new?
- trhway 6y ago
  >Freedom To Do Stupid Things something like this. Though those stupid things aren't niche cars or any other innovations. It is plain old stupidity - US has 10K/year DUI related deaths, Denmark - 75/year, 2x less per capita. Also bigger cars popular in US like trucks - while fully public road certified, they are conceptually and engineering wise are relatively behind the curve - resulting in more deadly accidents.
  - Daho0n 6y ago
    That is a bit surprising to me as Denmark in Scandinavia has a reputation for drinking a lot. I looked up the numbers on Wikipedia and "Pure alcohol consumption among persons (age 15+) in litres per capita per year" is 11.4 in Denmark and 9.2 in the US (same as Sweden). Of course DUI is something else entirely.. TIL.
    - trhway 6y ago
      In US you're officially drunk for driving purposes only upon reaching 0.08% BAC (i.e. "couple beers" is ok) while in many other countries you are drunk for driving purposes upon any alcohol drinking.

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago

Currently they're just planning to build cars from the spare parts inventory they bought. Technically they won't be new.

dm319 6y ago

I guess in most countries, you can renovate an old antique car from the 1920s and that's ok for people to drive around in. It's only a small step from that to saying that someone can upgrade an old car with a new engine and sell them. From a government perspective, as long as these cars are niche, they probably don't mind so much. I can go and buy a 1955 Morris Minor fairly easily and it won't have seatbelts, but the assumption is that I would be aware the car doesnt meet modern safety standards.

dharmab 6y ago

In the US we find your road safety laws insane as well. It costs 3x as much to DIY fix your own can there as it does here due to needing "approved parts" and an inspection of every repair. Things that are easy, safe and affordable DIY fixes in the US are impossible there. Your laws are not EU-wide, by the way. Most of the EU doesn't require the approved parts to pass inspection, and only requires the inspection at regular intervals, not after every repair.

Daho0n 6y ago
I don't know where you read this but it isn't true. >only requires the inspection at regular intervals, not after every repair. This is how it is in Scandinavian countries too by EU law (well, in EU member states, I don't know about Norway). It is inspection every 4 years or if it is a vintage car (30+ yro) every 8. You also don't need "approved parts" (what does that even mean?) and I can freely buy parts from the US and Germany and use if I want to and have done so (I have a US-only model motorcycle). The manufacture have to get all their car types certified by the state, like how NCAP crash-test one of each model, and if it is certified in one EU country it is in all. But if you change the car significantly (like upgrade an old 80's Trans-Am with modern parts) you have to get it certified all over again for that one car as it is now a unique untested car. Possible but extremely expensive. Sure it doesn't give you the freedom to drive some of the homemade monstrosities some drive in the US but it also doesn't block niche cars or vintage cars.
- rasz 6y ago
  >You also don't need "approved parts" (what does that even mean?) Germany is really crazy about TUV approving everything down to plastic grill. MCM covered it during their visit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yO1S-zICX4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yO1S-zICX4

rconti 6y ago

Not a giant loophole. A small loophole, for a low volume car. In fact, it's not really a loophole at all, it's the intent of the regulation.