3 ms·

American software engineers should form a special interest group. Not sure why so many people are resistant to the idea. Lobbies too. Its strange that an otherw

American software engineers should form a special interest group. Not sure why so many people are resistant to the idea. Lobbies too. Its strange that an otherwise left leaning demographic acts virtually conservative when it really counts towards their labor Edit for word choice

Melting_Harps 6y ago
> American software engineers should form a special interest group. It could be that one of the most prominent of the FAANGs is actually supporting things like this [0] under the threat of their lower paid warehouse workers unionizing. But also consider that Google is also going after its tech people who were involved in Unionizing and recently investigated an AI ethicsist [1]. I think its clear, most SWE have it (too?) good with amazing salaries and benefits to placate them into indifference or apathy on the matter and go to great lengths to keep them in an infantile servile cocoon/echo-chamber while at work, all while they create these abominations on privacy, free speech and the Human psyche while much of the rest of the World's working class/Industries suffer with under or unemployment altogether, so why risk it? Especially since so much of the labour is through H1 visas who can control and dictate the terms of their employment with the simple decision to terminate them and leave them out in the cold rather easily. It's concerning that even Tesla has been so anti-Union if I'm honest, and speaking as someone who has been in the Auto Industry, mainly German, most of it is highly unionized outside of the US. It was the Big 3's fault for being complacent and relaxed about innovation that made it non-competitive and was highlighted in 2008 financial crises how bad it had gotten. I'm not in favour of Unions unless as an absolute last resort, as in the case with FAANGs devouring of the Market share and its consolidation of the competition. I personally think having Unions only made the situation in 2008 worse for the Big 3 due to wide spread corruption and incompetence from the executive board, design, and engineering departments: but the core of the problem with US car manufacturers is with having a mediocre product in comparison to the rest of the World, rather than it solely being a union based Industry and thus a sure failure. That much is clear and had been the case outside of pick up trucks since the 70s as Japan, Germany and now Korea have eaten the US' lunch (marketshare) in total national and international deliveries/sales YoY and DoD. In the end it didn't stop Ford from still offering union based jobs, declining a bailout and they simply deciding to stop making cars now and focused on their stronger selling trucks, SUV products and some EV stuff, some of which is still in the works. They also had a massive marketing push for their Mustang and GT line up in Motorsports that made it rather successful. Though I think GM had more success with its relaunch of the Charger. I wouldn't buy any of it myself, but I commend their efforts and still it shows that the 'Unions are the source of all evil' that many Tech based conglomerates push is not true, especially for Mega Corps like Amazon and Google who have severe and outright horrible labour problems. 0: https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpkad/amazon-launches-anti-union-website-to-derail-alabama-union-drive https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpkad/amazon-launches-anti-... 1: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/margaret-mitchell-google-investigating-ai-researcher-awu-concerned.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/margaret-mitchell-google-inv...
sokoloff 6y ago
What would a union do for me that could possibly be worth 1% of my pay? There is already excess demand for skilled software engineers and if you don’t like how your company is treating you, there are many others from which to choose.
- bazooka_penguin 6y ago
  Security. Unions (and lobbies) aren't just about tangible and immediate benefits, they're a form of insurance against changing job markets and work forces. Again, not sure why you're so against it.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Do you have a good example of where a union was able to protect against major changes in the job market? Steel is out. So are auto workers.
    - bazooka_penguin 6y ago
      Why are auto workers considered out? The UAW still has hundreds of thousands of members. I would consider it relatively successful, for its members anyway.
      - refurb 6y ago
        They have lots of members but it’s way down from say 30 years ago. And benefits have been pulled way back. The union agreed that existing GM employees can keep their packages ($50+ per hour) while new union members start at $18. Basically 2 tiers of union members.
  - sokoloff 6y ago
    Job security comes in many forms. Working in a field where engineers can create huge returns for their company and where resulting demand far outstrips supply is a far better form of security than any union could ever provide. Unions can’t realistically protect against changing work forces. Software engineering is globalizing. Unstoppably. I’m not opposed to people organizing for whatever purpose they think is best. I am opposed to people being forced to pay a tithe to unions in order to work in their field. I don’t see unions as making my life in software engineering better at all and, given that, I’m naturally opposed to paying 1% of my earnings to a group that I don’t think will help. If others see it differently, they’re welcome to form one; I’m not “so opposed” that I’ll picket outside their workplace to interfere with them. Most engineers seeking security for their future would be much better off increasing their 401(k) deferral (or other savings) rate by 1% rather than sending that money to a union.

Melting_Harps 6y ago

> American software engineers should form a special interest group. It could be that one of the most prominent of the FAANGs is actually supporting things like this [0] under the threat of their lower paid warehouse workers unionizing. But also consider that Google is also going after its tech people who were involved in Unionizing and recently investigated an AI ethicsist [1]. I think its clear, most SWE have it (too?) good with amazing salaries and benefits to placate them into indifference or apathy on the matter and go to great lengths to keep them in an infantile servile cocoon/echo-chamber while at work, all while they create these abominations on privacy, free speech and the Human psyche while much of the rest of the World's working class/Industries suffer with under or unemployment altogether, so why risk it? Especially since so much of the labour is through H1 visas who can control and dictate the terms of their employment with the simple decision to terminate them and leave them out in the cold rather easily. It's concerning that even Tesla has been so anti-Union if I'm honest, and speaking as someone who has been in the Auto Industry, mainly German, most of it is highly unionized outside of the US. It was the Big 3's fault for being complacent and relaxed about innovation that made it non-competitive and was highlighted in 2008 financial crises how bad it had gotten. I'm not in favour of Unions unless as an absolute last resort, as in the case with FAANGs devouring of the Market share and its consolidation of the competition. I personally think having Unions only made the situation in 2008 worse for the Big 3 due to wide spread corruption and incompetence from the executive board, design, and engineering departments: but the core of the problem with US car manufacturers is with having a mediocre product in comparison to the rest of the World, rather than it solely being a union based Industry and thus a sure failure. That much is clear and had been the case outside of pick up trucks since the 70s as Japan, Germany and now Korea have eaten the US' lunch (marketshare) in total national and international deliveries/sales YoY and DoD. In the end it didn't stop Ford from still offering union based jobs, declining a bailout and they simply deciding to stop making cars now and focused on their stronger selling trucks, SUV products and some EV stuff, some of which is still in the works. They also had a massive marketing push for their Mustang and GT line up in Motorsports that made it rather successful. Though I think GM had more success with its relaunch of the Charger. I wouldn't buy any of it myself, but I commend their efforts and still it shows that the 'Unions are the source of all evil' that many Tech based conglomerates push is not true, especially for Mega Corps like Amazon and Google who have severe and outright horrible labour problems. 0: https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpkad/amazon-launches-anti-union-website-to-derail-alabama-union-drive https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpkad/amazon-launches-anti-... 1: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/margaret-mitchell-google-investigating-ai-researcher-awu-concerned.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/margaret-mitchell-google-inv...

sokoloff 6y ago

What would a union do for me that could possibly be worth 1% of my pay? There is already excess demand for skilled software engineers and if you don’t like how your company is treating you, there are many others from which to choose.

bazooka_penguin 6y ago
Security. Unions (and lobbies) aren't just about tangible and immediate benefits, they're a form of insurance against changing job markets and work forces. Again, not sure why you're so against it.
- refurb 6y ago
  Do you have a good example of where a union was able to protect against major changes in the job market? Steel is out. So are auto workers.
  - bazooka_penguin 6y ago
    Why are auto workers considered out? The UAW still has hundreds of thousands of members. I would consider it relatively successful, for its members anyway.
    - refurb 6y ago
      They have lots of members but it’s way down from say 30 years ago. And benefits have been pulled way back. The union agreed that existing GM employees can keep their packages ($50+ per hour) while new union members start at $18. Basically 2 tiers of union members.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  Job security comes in many forms. Working in a field where engineers can create huge returns for their company and where resulting demand far outstrips supply is a far better form of security than any union could ever provide. Unions can’t realistically protect against changing work forces. Software engineering is globalizing. Unstoppably. I’m not opposed to people organizing for whatever purpose they think is best. I am opposed to people being forced to pay a tithe to unions in order to work in their field. I don’t see unions as making my life in software engineering better at all and, given that, I’m naturally opposed to paying 1% of my earnings to a group that I don’t think will help. If others see it differently, they’re welcome to form one; I’m not “so opposed” that I’ll picket outside their workplace to interfere with them. Most engineers seeking security for their future would be much better off increasing their 401(k) deferral (or other savings) rate by 1% rather than sending that money to a union.