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>This is really cool. Kudos to Microsoft for really getting open source lately If they get open source so much it means not open sourcing what really matters i

>This is really cool. Kudos to Microsoft for really getting open source lately If they get open source so much it means not open sourcing what really matters is intentional. And quite frankly getting rid of patents, their litigiousness and data collection. But I'm asking too much and I would settle for them to just stop suffocating competitors, innovation and stop with vendor lock in. Same deal for their competitors. Anything that really matters is just like the same old MS you know. DirectX, Office, Xbox, everything SaaS, IDE, compilers, debuggers, language servers, file formats, UI frameworks, UI patents, GitHub, Windows, Server, you'll find examples in every area. Practices like buying or killing competitors like Vulkan related acquisitions. I get it they are a company and need to maximize profits, so it's cool. Microsoft has so many quality projects and good people working for them, it's just so frustrating that it's still like this. This will only get worse as the exploitative behavior and business models of their competitors like Google force their hand to do the same.

DennisP 6y ago
"By joining the Open Invention Network, Microsoft is offering its entire patent portfolio to all of the open-source patent consortium's members." https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-open-sources-its-entire-patent-portfolio/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-open-sources-its-ent... Apple had "1,996 total patents granted between July 1, 2019 and June 1, 2020, more than any other company in Silicon Valley." https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2020/07/27/top-of-the-list-patent-recipients.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2020/07/27/top-of-t...
- entropy1111 6y ago
  My recollection from previous OIN threads was that it came with a lot of caveats. I can't comment any further from lack of knowledge about patents and its subtleties. Would love to see an analysis of what really happened in practice since they did that.
galgalesh 6y ago
Microsoft joined the open invention network; a defensive patent pool protecting Linux (kernel and distributions). This directly cut into their patent revenue and removed some of their leverage towards Android OEM's. This matters a lot to the android and wider Linux ecosystem. Moreover, every single Microsoft patent will now be used to fight against any patent claim concerning Linux, related open source software, and a limited set of codecs. [0] Given the recent inclusion of an exFAT driver in Linux, this hurt MS's business even more. [0] https://openinventionnetwork.com/linux-system/ https://openinventionnetwork.com/linux-system/
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Moreover, every single Microsoft patent will now be used to fight against any patent claim concerning Linux, related open source software, and a limited set of codecs. Did Microsoft contribute all of their patents to the OIN? I seem to recall IBM only contributed a specific subset back in the day.
  - DennisP 6y ago
    According to the zdnet article I posted in a sibling comment, they did contribute all their patents, which is about 60,000 of them. They gave up significant licensing revenue.
    - beagle3 6y ago
      Did they? Is there a breakdown somewhere of their patent licensing revenue from Linux licensees, and the legal expenses they have in enforcing it? Did they give up Linux patent licenses from Android makers? They had billions coming in from Samsung and LG in the past but that was all under NDAs, we don’t know what patents were under discussion.
      - DennisP 6y ago
        I have no idea what their legal expenses were, but they explicitly said it covered all their patents. The link I posted mentions Android as something that would be covered.
29athrowaway 6y ago
All core MS products are the result of some level of backstabbing. Apple + Microsoft. Expected: Macintosh apps. Actual: Windows IBM + Microsoft. Expected: OS/2. Actual: MS NT kernel Sybase + Microsoft. Expected: Sybase SQL server. Actual: MS SQL Server Sun + Microsoft. Expected: Sun Java. Expected: .NET Framework OpenGL ARB + Microsoft. Expected: OpenGL. Actual: Direct3D. Also see what happened with Xamarin and Corel Office for Linux, DR-DOS, etc. But hey, they bought Github and open sourced an Electron based editor so we have to worship them now. Imagine you hire someone to do something for you and they end up stealing your business model and market share. That is Microsoft in a nutshell.
- chenzhekl 6y ago
  I cannot call those backstabbing. They are more of the results of market competition.
  - 29athrowaway 6y ago
    This wasn't team 1 vs team 2. It was one team splitting half-way and taking everything from the other.
    - kyberias 6y ago
      Explain how it was like that in the case of NT. IBM went their own way with OS/2 and Microsoft hired Dave Cutler from Digital to develop NT over several years. Windows NT is not OS/2. It never was.
      - 29athrowaway 6y ago
        That is a mischaracterization of what happened. Microsoft unilaterally changed the OS/2 3.0 API to the match the Windows API, IBM did not approve of that, and then the project split, with the Microsoft version of OS/2 3.0 becoming Windows NT.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    It’s not happening anymore, partly because of reputation and partly because they’re no longer the 800lbs gorilla they once were - but the “Microsoft kiss of death” was a thing - cooperating with Microsoft often resulted in great damage to the other company. SGI; Nokia; Sando; Spry; there were many others through the years.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mynameisash 6y ago
> Anything that really matters is just like the same old MS you know. I have been hearing this kind of thing for years, and I just don't get it. Microsoft has turned around completely, becoming a huge open-source contributor. They committed all their patents to OIN. They make .NET Core available for MacOS and Linux (including open-source). They are noticeably absent from the congressional hearings of the other huge tech companies who have been bad players. And yet we hear that they're "the same old MS". I get that no company is perfect, but in all honesty, what could Microsoft do that would change your perspective on them? And do you hold other companies (FAANG) do the same standard?
- entropy1111 6y ago
  >what could Microsoft do that would change your perspective on them? I mean it's really complicated. For starters I'd like them to stop forcing people to use their bad products just because they were there first to lock down the market and or abused their position. This is still happening today. Then I'll be more open to use their good products, and there's plenty of that. I want to be excited when MS announces a new technology, not to be reminded of how bad they behave as a company and the negative impact they have on my life. >And do you hold other companies (FAANG) do the same standard? Yes. At least with e.g. Apple and Google I can just not use their products, but with Google it's getting harder and harder as they monopolize the web and close/lock Android even more. Google removed don't be evil from their motto, MS should change theirs to We love open source when it's convenient. Nothing wrong with doing manipulative PR like everyone else, but don't be surprised when some people don't want to drink it.
  - Shared404 6y ago
    I agree with everything you've said, except >Nothing wrong with doing manipulative PR like everyone else[.] Just because everyone does something doesn't make it right.

DennisP 6y ago

"By joining the Open Invention Network, Microsoft is offering its entire patent portfolio to all of the open-source patent consortium's members." https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-open-sources-its-entire-patent-portfolio/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-open-sources-its-ent... Apple had "1,996 total patents granted between July 1, 2019 and June 1, 2020, more than any other company in Silicon Valley." https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2020/07/27/top-of-the-list-patent-recipients.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2020/07/27/top-of-t...

entropy1111 6y ago
My recollection from previous OIN threads was that it came with a lot of caveats. I can't comment any further from lack of knowledge about patents and its subtleties. Would love to see an analysis of what really happened in practice since they did that.

galgalesh 6y ago

Microsoft joined the open invention network; a defensive patent pool protecting Linux (kernel and distributions). This directly cut into their patent revenue and removed some of their leverage towards Android OEM's. This matters a lot to the android and wider Linux ecosystem. Moreover, every single Microsoft patent will now be used to fight against any patent claim concerning Linux, related open source software, and a limited set of codecs. [0] Given the recent inclusion of an exFAT driver in Linux, this hurt MS's business even more. [0] https://openinventionnetwork.com/linux-system/ https://openinventionnetwork.com/linux-system/

nitrogen 6y ago
Moreover, every single Microsoft patent will now be used to fight against any patent claim concerning Linux, related open source software, and a limited set of codecs. Did Microsoft contribute all of their patents to the OIN? I seem to recall IBM only contributed a specific subset back in the day.
- DennisP 6y ago
  According to the zdnet article I posted in a sibling comment, they did contribute all their patents, which is about 60,000 of them. They gave up significant licensing revenue.
  - beagle3 6y ago
    Did they? Is there a breakdown somewhere of their patent licensing revenue from Linux licensees, and the legal expenses they have in enforcing it? Did they give up Linux patent licenses from Android makers? They had billions coming in from Samsung and LG in the past but that was all under NDAs, we don’t know what patents were under discussion.
    - DennisP 6y ago
      I have no idea what their legal expenses were, but they explicitly said it covered all their patents. The link I posted mentions Android as something that would be covered.

29athrowaway 6y ago

All core MS products are the result of some level of backstabbing. Apple + Microsoft. Expected: Macintosh apps. Actual: Windows IBM + Microsoft. Expected: OS/2. Actual: MS NT kernel Sybase + Microsoft. Expected: Sybase SQL server. Actual: MS SQL Server Sun + Microsoft. Expected: Sun Java. Expected: .NET Framework OpenGL ARB + Microsoft. Expected: OpenGL. Actual: Direct3D. Also see what happened with Xamarin and Corel Office for Linux, DR-DOS, etc. But hey, they bought Github and open sourced an Electron based editor so we have to worship them now. Imagine you hire someone to do something for you and they end up stealing your business model and market share. That is Microsoft in a nutshell.

chenzhekl 6y ago
I cannot call those backstabbing. They are more of the results of market competition.
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  This wasn't team 1 vs team 2. It was one team splitting half-way and taking everything from the other.
  - kyberias 6y ago
    Explain how it was like that in the case of NT. IBM went their own way with OS/2 and Microsoft hired Dave Cutler from Digital to develop NT over several years. Windows NT is not OS/2. It never was.
    - 29athrowaway 6y ago
      That is a mischaracterization of what happened. Microsoft unilaterally changed the OS/2 3.0 API to the match the Windows API, IBM did not approve of that, and then the project split, with the Microsoft version of OS/2 3.0 becoming Windows NT.
- beagle3 6y ago
  It’s not happening anymore, partly because of reputation and partly because they’re no longer the 800lbs gorilla they once were - but the “Microsoft kiss of death” was a thing - cooperating with Microsoft often resulted in great damage to the other company. SGI; Nokia; Sando; Spry; there were many others through the years.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mynameisash 6y ago

> Anything that really matters is just like the same old MS you know. I have been hearing this kind of thing for years, and I just don't get it. Microsoft has turned around completely, becoming a huge open-source contributor. They committed all their patents to OIN. They make .NET Core available for MacOS and Linux (including open-source). They are noticeably absent from the congressional hearings of the other huge tech companies who have been bad players. And yet we hear that they're "the same old MS". I get that no company is perfect, but in all honesty, what could Microsoft do that would change your perspective on them? And do you hold other companies (FAANG) do the same standard?

entropy1111 6y ago
>what could Microsoft do that would change your perspective on them? I mean it's really complicated. For starters I'd like them to stop forcing people to use their bad products just because they were there first to lock down the market and or abused their position. This is still happening today. Then I'll be more open to use their good products, and there's plenty of that. I want to be excited when MS announces a new technology, not to be reminded of how bad they behave as a company and the negative impact they have on my life. >And do you hold other companies (FAANG) do the same standard? Yes. At least with e.g. Apple and Google I can just not use their products, but with Google it's getting harder and harder as they monopolize the web and close/lock Android even more. Google removed don't be evil from their motto, MS should change theirs to We love open source when it's convenient. Nothing wrong with doing manipulative PR like everyone else, but don't be surprised when some people don't want to drink it.
- Shared404 6y ago
  I agree with everything you've said, except >Nothing wrong with doing manipulative PR like everyone else[.] Just because everyone does something doesn't make it right.