4 ms·

Because, given the opportunity and no regulation, companies will always push to make all employees contractors. Independent contractors represent a significantl

by pfooti 6y ago

Because, given the opportunity and no regulation, companies will always push to make all employees contractors. Independent contractors represent a significantly lower liability on the balance sheets. Except that those lower liabilities are just externalizing the cost of employment to other systems (health and unemployment insurance, etc). If we don't regulate corporations, they will just race to the bottom in how they treat labor.

s3r3nity 6y ago
I'll grant that I agree this is probably true for low-skilled labor where supply is high and interchangeable. I don't think this is the case for low-supply, high-skill labor (ex: doctors, engineers, etc.) as well as certain low-supply trades (HVAC, welders, etc.) Then bargaining power can properly counteract any such forces.
- worik 6y ago
  "low-supply, high-skill labor (ex: doctors, engineers, etc.)" Doctors, I know, have powerful unions and associations. Very, very, powerful.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  This is absolutely true for engineers. While I did have employer provided healthcare, I was hired as a contract worker at Google X on their flagship robotics research project as a mechatronics prototype engineer and later a test engineer. I worked for two years alongside full time employees on the same exact things as full time employees. But they got stock, parties, and other special treats that contractors did not. Almost 50% of the team - I think the legal limit - were contractor roles. While I do appreciate that from their perspective it makes sense, it is also true that if we don't fight to protect workers, all jobs will go this way. That's actually why what an up-thread comment said is a great idea. If we decouple important things like healthcare from employment, then everyone gets important quality of life care without employers having to restrict benefits. If we do not fight for ourselves, we will end up in a situation where most people cannot access the basic necessities of life. Already in the US millions of Americans are without healthcare.
- glitchc 6y ago
  The AMA is a union in all but name [1] and quite powerful [2]: By money spent, the AMA is the nation’s third largest lobbying organization of the last 20 years, behind only the US Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Realtors. [1] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/09/03/the-doctors-union/?sh=14e6d4c34339 https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/09/03/the-doct... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/06/why-were-fighting-the-american-medical-association https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/06/why-we...
  - esoterica 6y ago
    What does lobbying have to do with whether or not an organization is a union? The Chamber of Commerce obviously isn't a union.
    - Ericson2314 6y ago
      The AMA obviously represents a certain class of workers, so the question is whether it is a political organization to increase their stature. The lobbying stats answer in the strong affirmative.
  - bazooka_penguin 6y ago
    American software engineers should form a special interest group. Not sure why so many people are resistant to the idea. Lobbies too. Its strange that an otherwise left leaning demographic acts virtually conservative when it really counts towards their labor Edit for word choice
    - Melting_Harps 6y ago
      > American software engineers should form a special interest group. It could be that one of the most prominent of the FAANGs is actually supporting things like this [0] under the threat of their lower paid warehouse workers unionizing. But also consider that Google is also going after its tech people who were involved in Unionizing and recently investigated an AI ethicsist [1]. I think its clear, most SWE have it (too?) good with amazing salaries and benefits to placate them into indifference or apathy on the matter and go to great lengths to keep them in an infantile servile cocoon/echo-chamber while at work, all while they create these abominations on privacy, free speech and the Human psyche while much of the rest of the World's working class/Industries suffer with under or unemployment altogether, so why risk it? Especially since so much of the labour is through H1 visas who can control and dictate the terms of their employment with the simple decision to terminate them and leave them out in the cold rather easily. It's concerning that even Tesla has been so anti-Union if I'm honest, and speaking as someone who has been in the Auto Industry, mainly German, most of it is highly unionized outside of the US. It was the Big 3's fault for being complacent and relaxed about innovation that made it non-competitive and was highlighted in 2008 financial crises how bad it had gotten. I'm not in favour of Unions unless as an absolute last resort, as in the case with FAANGs devouring of the Market share and its consolidation of the competition. I personally think having Unions only made the situation in 2008 worse for the Big 3 due to wide spread corruption and incompetence from the executive board, design, and engineering departments: but the core of the problem with US car manufacturers is with having a mediocre product in comparison to the rest of the World, rather than it solely being a union based Industry and thus a sure failure. That much is clear and had been the case outside of pick up trucks since the 70s as Japan, Germany and now Korea have eaten the US' lunch (marketshare) in total national and international deliveries/sales YoY and DoD. In the end it didn't stop Ford from still offering union based jobs, declining a bailout and they simply deciding to stop making cars now and focused on their stronger selling trucks, SUV products and some EV stuff, some of which is still in the works. They also had a massive marketing push for their Mustang and GT line up in Motorsports that made it rather successful. Though I think GM had more success with its relaunch of the Charger. I wouldn't buy any of it myself, but I commend their efforts and still it shows that the 'Unions are the source of all evil' that many Tech based conglomerates push is not true, especially for Mega Corps like Amazon and Google who have severe and outright horrible labour problems. 0: https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpkad/amazon-launches-anti-union-website-to-derail-alabama-union-drive https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpkad/amazon-launches-anti-... 1: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/margaret-mitchell-google-investigating-ai-researcher-awu-concerned.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/margaret-mitchell-google-inv...
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  Acting is certainly a high-skill profession, but even the in-demand ones are members of the Screen Actors Guild. They know why it's a good idea.
- makoz 6y ago
  What do you think about sports leagues and the fact that the major ones in US have unions for their players? (low supply, high demand)
splistud 6y ago
Perhaps. But also, given the regulation, you remove opportunity for those that are looking for the type of employment you discredit from accepting it from employers that want to offer it. I very much appreciate the ability to step into the gig economy when I need to. I assume you mean well, but I wish you and other's who agree with you would kindly butt out and let me make my own decisions.
robertlagrant 6y ago
> Because, given the opportunity and no regulation, companies will always push to make all employees contractors This is not the case. Companies need permanent staff for: - deciding strategy, at various levels - deciding who's worth bringing on board - managing internal and external staff - cost (permanent contractors cost a lot) - being part of corporate memory, which can be handed over in a notice period of a month or two or three, but not in the week it takes for a contractor to offboard

by pfooti 6y ago

s3r3nity 6y ago

I'll grant that I agree this is probably true for low-skilled labor where supply is high and interchangeable. I don't think this is the case for low-supply, high-skill labor (ex: doctors, engineers, etc.) as well as certain low-supply trades (HVAC, welders, etc.) Then bargaining power can properly counteract any such forces.

worik 6y ago
"low-supply, high-skill labor (ex: doctors, engineers, etc.)" Doctors, I know, have powerful unions and associations. Very, very, powerful.
TaylorAlexander 6y ago
This is absolutely true for engineers. While I did have employer provided healthcare, I was hired as a contract worker at Google X on their flagship robotics research project as a mechatronics prototype engineer and later a test engineer. I worked for two years alongside full time employees on the same exact things as full time employees. But they got stock, parties, and other special treats that contractors did not. Almost 50% of the team - I think the legal limit - were contractor roles. While I do appreciate that from their perspective it makes sense, it is also true that if we don't fight to protect workers, all jobs will go this way. That's actually why what an up-thread comment said is a great idea. If we decouple important things like healthcare from employment, then everyone gets important quality of life care without employers having to restrict benefits. If we do not fight for ourselves, we will end up in a situation where most people cannot access the basic necessities of life. Already in the US millions of Americans are without healthcare.
glitchc 6y ago
The AMA is a union in all but name [1] and quite powerful [2]: By money spent, the AMA is the nation’s third largest lobbying organization of the last 20 years, behind only the US Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Realtors. [1] [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/09/03/the-doctors-union/?sh=14e6d4c34339 https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2014/09/03/the-doct... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/06/why-were-fighting-the-american-medical-association https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/06/why-we...
- esoterica 6y ago
  What does lobbying have to do with whether or not an organization is a union? The Chamber of Commerce obviously isn't a union.
  - Ericson2314 6y ago
    The AMA obviously represents a certain class of workers, so the question is whether it is a political organization to increase their stature. The lobbying stats answer in the strong affirmative.
- bazooka_penguin 6y ago
  American software engineers should form a special interest group. Not sure why so many people are resistant to the idea. Lobbies too. Its strange that an otherwise left leaning demographic acts virtually conservative when it really counts towards their labor Edit for word choice
  - Melting_Harps 6y ago
    > American software engineers should form a special interest group. It could be that one of the most prominent of the FAANGs is actually supporting things like this [0] under the threat of their lower paid warehouse workers unionizing. But also consider that Google is also going after its tech people who were involved in Unionizing and recently investigated an AI ethicsist [1]. I think its clear, most SWE have it (too?) good with amazing salaries and benefits to placate them into indifference or apathy on the matter and go to great lengths to keep them in an infantile servile cocoon/echo-chamber while at work, all while they create these abominations on privacy, free speech and the Human psyche while much of the rest of the World's working class/Industries suffer with under or unemployment altogether, so why risk it? Especially since so much of the labour is through H1 visas who can control and dictate the terms of their employment with the simple decision to terminate them and leave them out in the cold rather easily. It's concerning that even Tesla has been so anti-Union if I'm honest, and speaking as someone who has been in the Auto Industry, mainly German, most of it is highly unionized outside of the US. It was the Big 3's fault for being complacent and relaxed about innovation that made it non-competitive and was highlighted in 2008 financial crises how bad it had gotten. I'm not in favour of Unions unless as an absolute last resort, as in the case with FAANGs devouring of the Market share and its consolidation of the competition. I personally think having Unions only made the situation in 2008 worse for the Big 3 due to wide spread corruption and incompetence from the executive board, design, and engineering departments: but the core of the problem with US car manufacturers is with having a mediocre product in comparison to the rest of the World, rather than it solely being a union based Industry and thus a sure failure. That much is clear and had been the case outside of pick up trucks since the 70s as Japan, Germany and now Korea have eaten the US' lunch (marketshare) in total national and international deliveries/sales YoY and DoD. In the end it didn't stop Ford from still offering union based jobs, declining a bailout and they simply deciding to stop making cars now and focused on their stronger selling trucks, SUV products and some EV stuff, some of which is still in the works. They also had a massive marketing push for their Mustang and GT line up in Motorsports that made it rather successful. Though I think GM had more success with its relaunch of the Charger. I wouldn't buy any of it myself, but I commend their efforts and still it shows that the 'Unions are the source of all evil' that many Tech based conglomerates push is not true, especially for Mega Corps like Amazon and Google who have severe and outright horrible labour problems. 0: https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpkad/amazon-launches-anti-union-website-to-derail-alabama-union-drive https://www.vice.com/en/article/5dpkad/amazon-launches-anti-... 1: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/margaret-mitchell-google-investigating-ai-researcher-awu-concerned.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/21/margaret-mitchell-google-inv...
HarryHirsch 6y ago
Acting is certainly a high-skill profession, but even the in-demand ones are members of the Screen Actors Guild. They know why it's a good idea.
makoz 6y ago
What do you think about sports leagues and the fact that the major ones in US have unions for their players? (low supply, high demand)

splistud 6y ago

Perhaps. But also, given the regulation, you remove opportunity for those that are looking for the type of employment you discredit from accepting it from employers that want to offer it. I very much appreciate the ability to step into the gig economy when I need to. I assume you mean well, but I wish you and other's who agree with you would kindly butt out and let me make my own decisions.

robertlagrant 6y ago

> Because, given the opportunity and no regulation, companies will always push to make all employees contractors This is not the case. Companies need permanent staff for: - deciding strategy, at various levels - deciding who's worth bringing on board - managing internal and external staff - cost (permanent contractors cost a lot) - being part of corporate memory, which can be handed over in a notice period of a month or two or three, but not in the week it takes for a contractor to offboard