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What about GNU? It seems like most Windows-ₗusing devs use WSL2’s Linux VM. What advantages does that have over keeping the MS OS’s forced updates, BSODs, etc.

What about GNU? It seems like most Windows-ₗusing devs use WSL2’s Linux VM. What advantages does that have over keeping the MS OS’s forced updates, BSODs, etc. in a VM, while keeping a free OS stably settled on bare metal? I can imagine drivers, but if you stick to only Dell Developer Edition, Lenovo Linux-certified, Purism Librem, System76, or similar (still significantly wider selection than Apple s̶h̶e̶e̶p̶ fans seem satisfied with) hardware, things should work more smoothly than with Windows (drivers are built into the kernel and update with the OS).

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
It seems like most Windows users use WSL2’s Linux VM. Most Windows users haven't got a clue what Linux is let alone WSL2.
- boogies 6y ago
  Or that Rust isn’t iron oxide. I’ve edited that line to be clearer, and I’ll link definitions for all the other words ~~if someone will show me a pastebin that will hold the 583732 byte file I’ve just created for shell (xargs & dict) practice for free~~ Edit: https://ghostbin.com/paste/kgwWc https://ghostbin.com/paste/kgwWc.
lmm 6y ago
> I can imagine drivers, but if you stick to only Dell Developer Edition, Lenovo Linux-certified, Purism Librem, System76, or similar (still significantly wider selection than Apple s̶h̶e̶e̶p̶ fans seem satisfied with) hardware I don't need a huge selection, but I do need polished hardware that I can walk into a store and try out before buying. Just things like the feel of the keyboard or the trackpad can make a system a nightmare to use if they're bad. I also need to be confident that I'm not going to get given the runaround if a piece of hardware (e.g. docking station or monitor) doesn't work with the machine. > things should work more smoothly than with Windows (drivers are built into the kernel and update with the OS). That's actually one of the things that worries me the most about Linux - I can't pin a driver to a version that's working, and if the kernel drops support for my hardware then I have to choose between losing support for my hardware or never upgrading my OS. I was excited for GNU/kFreeBSD up until the point where systemd arrived and destroyed all the advantages of free OSes.
- boogies 6y ago
  > I do need polished hardware that I can walk into a store and try out Doesn’t this apply to my first two suggestions? The Dell XPS Developer Edition is the same hardware as the Windows version, just with Ubuntu preinstalled. And Dell has upstreamed the drivers. Similar with Lenovo hardware, except IIUC they haven’t started shipping Linux preinstalled yet, you just buy a normal Thinkpad and install your distro of choice. Purism has a basic return policy, though IIUC you have to pay shipping and, if there’s no hardware defect, a 10% restocking fee: https://puri.sm/policies/ https://puri.sm/policies/. System76 has a 30-Day Limited Money Back Guarantee linked in their websites footer: https://system76.com/warranty https://system76.com/warranty (^f 30 and hit enter a couple times). > if the kernel drops support for my hardware Is there precedent for this? It still supports 32-bit CPUs long after most people have upgraded — indeed certain distros like Ubuntu have stopped supporting them, but there are probably hundreds of other distros that haven’t done that¹, like Devuan, which also champions init freedom and maintains a list of a ~two dozen Free distros/OSes that don’t force systemd: https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom ¹Edit: Distrowatch lists 40 active distros that support i386, 102 active that don’t use systemd, and 25 active (and 115 non-active) that meet both of those criteria : https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All&category=All&origin=All&basedon=All&notbasedon=None&desktop=All&architecture=i386&package=All&rolling=All&isosize=All&netinstall=All&language=All&defaultinit=Not+systemd&status=Active#simple https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All&category=All&o...
  - lmm 6y ago
    > Doesn’t this apply to my first two suggestions? The Dell XPS Developer Edition is the same hardware as the Windows version, just with Ubuntu preinstalled. And Dell has upstreamed the drivers. Similar with Lenovo hardware, except IIUC they haven’t started shipping Linux preinstalled yet, you just buy a normal Thinkpad and install your distro of choice. Drivers make a lot of difference to the feel of a trackpad, I wouldn't want to buy without testing the actual drivers. I wanted to like the XPS but its keyboard felt too rubbery to me. The idea of buying something and then shipping it back really doesn't appeal to me (I'm not from the US and the idea of just returning stuff isn't so much in our culture); I really want to go to an actual showroom-like store, try out a bunch of different laptops, and then walk away with the one I like, and I accept paying a premium for that. (I'm sure others will feel different, and maybe I'm not being reasonable; just trying to describe where I'm coming from). > Is there precedent for this? Yes, I've had three different pieces of hardware go unsupported in Linux (Logitech QuickCam USB - eventually support reappeared in a different driver; Asus A730W PDA; an old Hauppauge TV tuner card). Linux is openly really hostile about out-of-tree drivers (no stable API as a matter of policy) which the first two were, but even in-tree drivers are aggressively deprecated (the Hauppauge driver was one of those). I switched to FreeBSD on my home server because I was just fed up with all the churn of Linux and it's been a lot better.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago

It seems like most Windows users use WSL2’s Linux VM. Most Windows users haven't got a clue what Linux is let alone WSL2.

boogies 6y ago
Or that Rust isn’t iron oxide. I’ve edited that line to be clearer, and I’ll link definitions for all the other words ~~if someone will show me a pastebin that will hold the 583732 byte file I’ve just created for shell (xargs & dict) practice for free~~ Edit: https://ghostbin.com/paste/kgwWc https://ghostbin.com/paste/kgwWc.

lmm 6y ago

> I can imagine drivers, but if you stick to only Dell Developer Edition, Lenovo Linux-certified, Purism Librem, System76, or similar (still significantly wider selection than Apple s̶h̶e̶e̶p̶ fans seem satisfied with) hardware I don't need a huge selection, but I do need polished hardware that I can walk into a store and try out before buying. Just things like the feel of the keyboard or the trackpad can make a system a nightmare to use if they're bad. I also need to be confident that I'm not going to get given the runaround if a piece of hardware (e.g. docking station or monitor) doesn't work with the machine. > things should work more smoothly than with Windows (drivers are built into the kernel and update with the OS). That's actually one of the things that worries me the most about Linux - I can't pin a driver to a version that's working, and if the kernel drops support for my hardware then I have to choose between losing support for my hardware or never upgrading my OS. I was excited for GNU/kFreeBSD up until the point where systemd arrived and destroyed all the advantages of free OSes.

boogies 6y ago
> I do need polished hardware that I can walk into a store and try out Doesn’t this apply to my first two suggestions? The Dell XPS Developer Edition is the same hardware as the Windows version, just with Ubuntu preinstalled. And Dell has upstreamed the drivers. Similar with Lenovo hardware, except IIUC they haven’t started shipping Linux preinstalled yet, you just buy a normal Thinkpad and install your distro of choice. Purism has a basic return policy, though IIUC you have to pay shipping and, if there’s no hardware defect, a 10% restocking fee: https://puri.sm/policies/ https://puri.sm/policies/. System76 has a 30-Day Limited Money Back Guarantee linked in their websites footer: https://system76.com/warranty https://system76.com/warranty (^f 30 and hit enter a couple times). > if the kernel drops support for my hardware Is there precedent for this? It still supports 32-bit CPUs long after most people have upgraded — indeed certain distros like Ubuntu have stopped supporting them, but there are probably hundreds of other distros that haven’t done that¹, like Devuan, which also champions init freedom and maintains a list of a ~two dozen Free distros/OSes that don’t force systemd: https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom ¹Edit: Distrowatch lists 40 active distros that support i386, 102 active that don’t use systemd, and 25 active (and 115 non-active) that meet both of those criteria : https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All&category=All&origin=All&basedon=All&notbasedon=None&desktop=All&architecture=i386&package=All&rolling=All&isosize=All&netinstall=All&language=All&defaultinit=Not+systemd&status=Active#simple https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All&category=All&o...
- lmm 6y ago
  > Doesn’t this apply to my first two suggestions? The Dell XPS Developer Edition is the same hardware as the Windows version, just with Ubuntu preinstalled. And Dell has upstreamed the drivers. Similar with Lenovo hardware, except IIUC they haven’t started shipping Linux preinstalled yet, you just buy a normal Thinkpad and install your distro of choice. Drivers make a lot of difference to the feel of a trackpad, I wouldn't want to buy without testing the actual drivers. I wanted to like the XPS but its keyboard felt too rubbery to me. The idea of buying something and then shipping it back really doesn't appeal to me (I'm not from the US and the idea of just returning stuff isn't so much in our culture); I really want to go to an actual showroom-like store, try out a bunch of different laptops, and then walk away with the one I like, and I accept paying a premium for that. (I'm sure others will feel different, and maybe I'm not being reasonable; just trying to describe where I'm coming from). > Is there precedent for this? Yes, I've had three different pieces of hardware go unsupported in Linux (Logitech QuickCam USB - eventually support reappeared in a different driver; Asus A730W PDA; an old Hauppauge TV tuner card). Linux is openly really hostile about out-of-tree drivers (no stable API as a matter of policy) which the first two were, but even in-tree drivers are aggressively deprecated (the Hauppauge driver was one of those). I switched to FreeBSD on my home server because I was just fed up with all the churn of Linux and it's been a lot better.