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Steve Jobs, already legendary for avoiding paying engineers for their contributions, organized an industry-wide cartel to hold down wages, and he never had an M

Steve Jobs, already legendary for avoiding paying engineers for their contributions, organized an industry-wide cartel to hold down wages, and he never had an MBA. It's a bad leadership thing, not an MBA thing.

johnmaguire2013 6y ago
And yet Apple is the world's most valuable company.
S_A_P 6y ago
Its not not an MBA thing either. Sure its fun to dump on MBAs as being ruthless, careless and thinking of resources as replaceable widgets. To some degree you are right in that bad leadership will make these sorts of short sighted decisions, but Ive met enough MBAs to think that that masters degree is a shortcut to being a "good" manager.
- dv_dt 6y ago
  I think MBA here is a label to fill in for a cost-first mindset vs maybe a value-first balance. By that I mean a more balanced view of the company making money not by prioritizing first order mechanics of profits, but more in depth view of how the profits are maximized by actual product workings - which tends to be represented at secondary, tertiary, or even deeper level in the accounting structure if at all.
sokoloff 6y ago
It's not bad leadership to hold down the costs of your key inputs. It's bad leadership to do that if doing so undermines the position of your company in the market. The handful of Apple engineers I know are incredibly happy and devoted to their work at Apple and being paid 50% more to work for Google would feel like a step backward to them. That, in combination with their business results is, to me, evidence of excellent leadership at Apple.
- abecedarius 6y ago
  Separate the wage-fixing cartel from the rewarding work. Both may reduce the wages they have to offer, yet neither action requires the other. One of them is good, the other unethical and illegal.
- DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  > It's not bad leadership to hold down the costs of your key inputs. I think your point misses a crucial distinction. The issue isn't whether or not "holding down the costs of your key inputs" is good or bad, all other things being equal. Rather, the issue was that Jobs formed an illegal cartel to accomplish that goal.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  It’s bad leadership to organize a cartel to improve your pay. It’s bad, because good leaders are supposed to take sacrifices for those they are protecting. Our system doesn’t necessarily promote good leaders though.
devmunchies 6y ago
MBA programs institutionalize that thought process.
johncena33 6y ago
The way I see MBA in business is like condiments in cooking. You need condiments to make delcious meals, but condiments are never the meals by themselves. The problem arises when you treat condiments as meals. In similar vein, when MBAs are seen as sole value creators and other professions are seen as some drones to execute their vision.

johnmaguire2013 6y ago

And yet Apple is the world's most valuable company.

S_A_P 6y ago

Its not not an MBA thing either. Sure its fun to dump on MBAs as being ruthless, careless and thinking of resources as replaceable widgets. To some degree you are right in that bad leadership will make these sorts of short sighted decisions, but Ive met enough MBAs to think that that masters degree is a shortcut to being a "good" manager.

dv_dt 6y ago
I think MBA here is a label to fill in for a cost-first mindset vs maybe a value-first balance. By that I mean a more balanced view of the company making money not by prioritizing first order mechanics of profits, but more in depth view of how the profits are maximized by actual product workings - which tends to be represented at secondary, tertiary, or even deeper level in the accounting structure if at all.

sokoloff 6y ago

It's not bad leadership to hold down the costs of your key inputs. It's bad leadership to do that if doing so undermines the position of your company in the market. The handful of Apple engineers I know are incredibly happy and devoted to their work at Apple and being paid 50% more to work for Google would feel like a step backward to them. That, in combination with their business results is, to me, evidence of excellent leadership at Apple.

abecedarius 6y ago
Separate the wage-fixing cartel from the rewarding work. Both may reduce the wages they have to offer, yet neither action requires the other. One of them is good, the other unethical and illegal.
DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
> It's not bad leadership to hold down the costs of your key inputs. I think your point misses a crucial distinction. The issue isn't whether or not "holding down the costs of your key inputs" is good or bad, all other things being equal. Rather, the issue was that Jobs formed an illegal cartel to accomplish that goal.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
It’s bad leadership to organize a cartel to improve your pay. It’s bad, because good leaders are supposed to take sacrifices for those they are protecting. Our system doesn’t necessarily promote good leaders though.

devmunchies 6y ago

MBA programs institutionalize that thought process.

johncena33 6y ago

The way I see MBA in business is like condiments in cooking. You need condiments to make delcious meals, but condiments are never the meals by themselves. The problem arises when you treat condiments as meals. In similar vein, when MBAs are seen as sole value creators and other professions are seen as some drones to execute their vision.