7 ms·

Advertisements have emerged on Substack's 'ad-free' newsletter platform

75 points by krm01 6y ago

ivanbakel 6y ago
Ignoring, for the moment, the questionable morals of pervading an ad-free space with adverts for your own profits: the article could dwell more on the extent to which these companies are burning Substack down for fuel. It's very mild to say that adverts "risk Substack's funding model". I'd be more dramatic - advertising like this risks Substack's brand reputation, and the subscription incomes of every non-advertising publisher on it; in other words, the existence of the business itself. If I'm paying to get ad-free content, and ads slip in anyways - I'm liable to blame Substack.
- ssivark 6y ago
  Fair point, but what can Substack actually do about this? Maybe they can forbid insertions from ad networks technically and in their TOS, but at the other extreme end, there’s almost nothing they can do about submarine articles. What if someone set up a Wirecutter analogue (but being paid for reviews) on Substack? At the end of the day, it is fundamentally a platform for sharing opinions.
- soneca 6y ago
  I don’t think people will blame Substack. As I perceive Substack model and positioning , I would guess that people would blame the author. Also, newspapers have a mix of subscription and ads for decades, I don’t think it’s that shocking that some Substack authors are doing that as well.
  - ivanbakel 6y ago
    >As I perceive Substack model and positioning , I would guess that people would blame the author. That depends on the extent to which users see Substack as a publisher vs a marketplace. If you think Substack's role is just infrastructural, you would blame the author. But if you think Substack has to provide value by cultivating good, high-quality newsletters, then you blame Substack. But in either case, if you're looking for an ad-free experience, an increase in ads will frustrate you. Even if you don't think Substack is responsible for ads, you may be using it specifically to find ad-free content creators. The moment that guarantee vanishes from the Substack marketplace, the service becomes less valuable to you. >Also, newspapers have a mix of subscription and ads for decades, Substack's business model is predicated on its dissimilarity to existing publishing forms. By choosing their own subscriptions and receiving them in their inbox, a Substack customer is doing the complete opposite to going out and buying a particular broadsheet printed by someone else. I doubt any Substack customer who is paying for an ad-free experience would appreciate the comparison to a newspaper.
- criddell 6y ago
  Does Substack claim to be an ad-free space? Edit: In their FAQ they say: > Substack is entirely focused on subscriptions, so we don't build any additional functionality to support affiliate links or advertising, but you are free to use them.
  - burkaman 6y ago
    Also in the FAQ: > How does Substack make money? > Substack takes a 10% fee on all paid subscriptions. Substack will never run ads or sell user data.
- paxys 6y ago
  This is a very real problem. I have been a YouTube Premium subscriber for years, but am now considering cancelling because every popular channel has started embedding their own ads in videos. It's the smaller creators who end up suffering for it.
- js1987 6y ago
  As one of the protagonists of the article in OP, I want to mention that the vast majority of ad-seeking writers are not also charging paywall-style for their content. This is about providing an alternative to the paywall for writers.
LordAtlas 6y ago
Is running ads on your Substack newsletter fine as per Substack's ToS though?
- criddell 6y ago
  Yes.
vlod 6y ago
https://archive.is/yUWvC https://archive.is/yUWvC
- sprayk 6y ago
  How do I get past the captcha on these links? The POST after I pass the captcha just 500s and I end up back at the same page but with a new captcha. Turned off adblock and made sure cookies weren't blocked.
  - vlod 6y ago
    Hmm.. I don't get a captcha for archive.is. (Just tried on FF and Chrome) Do you have any wonky extensions?
  - behindsight 6y ago
    Out of curiosity, are you using Cloudflare DNS? It seems to be a conscious decision on the part of archive.is A previous discussion can be found here[0] with the statement by archive.is here[1] 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702 1: https://twitter.com/archiveis/status/1018691421182791680 https://twitter.com/archiveis/status/1018691421182791680
rchaud 6y ago
You will never escape ads. HN is always about "Let me pay to not see ads". But it doesn't work that way. The value of ads is quantified in aggregate, not on a per-customer basis. This isn't a theoretical economics experiment that can be carried out on a spreadsheet, where you can neatly decouple ad revenue from the calculation of customer lifetime value and spit out a nice round price point for an ad-free experience. This price would need to be revised quarterly at least as to account for ad revenue seasonality and changing subscriber numbers. > As an isolated event, advertising on Substack is no big deal. But if it becomes ubiquitous, the funding model of the platform could be at risk, forcing Substack to either clamp down on this cottage industry or embrace it. Substack could incorporate advertising into its product, but doing so would contradict the platform's commitment to remaining ad-free. So, the ads will be tolerated for as long as Substack does not have a native ad platform through which all ads must flow through.
- criddell 6y ago
  > But it doesn't work that way. Since there are services that have ad-free tiers I think it can work that way. Hulu*, for example has an ad-free tier and they don't change the price quarterly. * Yes, I know there are something like 3 shows that still have ads, but it doesn't change my argument.
- burkaman 6y ago
  It doesn't have to be this way. It is possible to decline a money-making opportunity. Can you think of any businesses near you that have blank outdoor wall space, even though they could make good money putting a billboard on it?
  - BitwiseFool 6y ago
    In the State of Hawaii the Outdoor Circle successfully made billboards illegal. Businesses can still have signs on their storefronts but that's about it. Many mural artists have filled the void and you can see some in the news story below: https://www.civilbeat.org/2017/08/lets-preserve-and-perpetuate-art-in-public-places/ https://www.civilbeat.org/2017/08/lets-preserve-and-perpetua...
MaggieL 6y ago
Paywall.
- vlod 6y ago
  see my comment above for: archive.is link
eugeniub 6y ago
Ironically I can’t view this article without disabling my iOS adblocker.
- randompwd 6y ago
  There's nothing ironic about that. The site hosting the article isn't substack nor is the article a condemnation of advertising.
jelling 6y ago
The risk I see for Substack is that if a writer has enough ad revenue in parallel to their Substack subscriptions they are more likely to jump ship, or at least, threaten to reduce the 10% commission. I haven't used Substack's creator software so not certain if they offer more value than a payment process (or even a vertical-bank designed for creators) would. But neither of those would charge 10%.
mkr-hn 6y ago
This will probably go about as well as Feedburner's RSS ads.
jiofih 6y ago
Can’t read the article as it is behind a paywall :|
icefrakker 6y ago
I wish newspapers would offer a no ads subscription.
black_puppydog 6y ago
I really never saw a convincing argument for why substack would go any other way than platforms before them. They're all liable to the same market pressures. Easy as that. If the paperwork of a company doesn't specifically rule out certain changes to occur upon incorporation, don't rely on those changes not occurring.

75 points by krm01 6y ago

Ignoring, for the moment, the questionable morals of pervading an ad-free space with adverts for your own profits: the article could dwell more on the extent to which these companies are burning Substack down for fuel. It's very mild to say that adverts "risk Substack's funding model". I'd be more dramatic - advertising like this risks Substack's brand reputation, and the subscription incomes of every non-advertising publisher on it; in other words, the existence of the business itself. If I'm paying to get ad-free content, and ads slip in anyways - I'm liable to blame Substack.

ssivark 6y ago
Fair point, but what can Substack actually do about this? Maybe they can forbid insertions from ad networks technically and in their TOS, but at the other extreme end, there’s almost nothing they can do about submarine articles. What if someone set up a Wirecutter analogue (but being paid for reviews) on Substack? At the end of the day, it is fundamentally a platform for sharing opinions.
soneca 6y ago
I don’t think people will blame Substack. As I perceive Substack model and positioning , I would guess that people would blame the author. Also, newspapers have a mix of subscription and ads for decades, I don’t think it’s that shocking that some Substack authors are doing that as well.
- ivanbakel 6y ago
  >As I perceive Substack model and positioning , I would guess that people would blame the author. That depends on the extent to which users see Substack as a publisher vs a marketplace. If you think Substack's role is just infrastructural, you would blame the author. But if you think Substack has to provide value by cultivating good, high-quality newsletters, then you blame Substack. But in either case, if you're looking for an ad-free experience, an increase in ads will frustrate you. Even if you don't think Substack is responsible for ads, you may be using it specifically to find ad-free content creators. The moment that guarantee vanishes from the Substack marketplace, the service becomes less valuable to you. >Also, newspapers have a mix of subscription and ads for decades, Substack's business model is predicated on its dissimilarity to existing publishing forms. By choosing their own subscriptions and receiving them in their inbox, a Substack customer is doing the complete opposite to going out and buying a particular broadsheet printed by someone else. I doubt any Substack customer who is paying for an ad-free experience would appreciate the comparison to a newspaper.
criddell 6y ago
Does Substack claim to be an ad-free space? Edit: In their FAQ they say: > Substack is entirely focused on subscriptions, so we don't build any additional functionality to support affiliate links or advertising, but you are free to use them.
- burkaman 6y ago
  Also in the FAQ: > How does Substack make money? > Substack takes a 10% fee on all paid subscriptions. Substack will never run ads or sell user data.
paxys 6y ago
This is a very real problem. I have been a YouTube Premium subscriber for years, but am now considering cancelling because every popular channel has started embedding their own ads in videos. It's the smaller creators who end up suffering for it.
js1987 6y ago
As one of the protagonists of the article in OP, I want to mention that the vast majority of ad-seeking writers are not also charging paywall-style for their content. This is about providing an alternative to the paywall for writers.

LordAtlas 6y ago

Is running ads on your Substack newsletter fine as per Substack's ToS though?

criddell 6y ago
Yes.

vlod 6y ago

https://archive.is/yUWvC https://archive.is/yUWvC

sprayk 6y ago
How do I get past the captcha on these links? The POST after I pass the captcha just 500s and I end up back at the same page but with a new captcha. Turned off adblock and made sure cookies weren't blocked.
- vlod 6y ago
  Hmm.. I don't get a captcha for archive.is. (Just tried on FF and Chrome) Do you have any wonky extensions?
- behindsight 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, are you using Cloudflare DNS? It seems to be a conscious decision on the part of archive.is A previous discussion can be found here[0] with the statement by archive.is here[1] 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19828702 1: https://twitter.com/archiveis/status/1018691421182791680 https://twitter.com/archiveis/status/1018691421182791680

rchaud 6y ago

You will never escape ads. HN is always about "Let me pay to not see ads". But it doesn't work that way. The value of ads is quantified in aggregate, not on a per-customer basis. This isn't a theoretical economics experiment that can be carried out on a spreadsheet, where you can neatly decouple ad revenue from the calculation of customer lifetime value and spit out a nice round price point for an ad-free experience. This price would need to be revised quarterly at least as to account for ad revenue seasonality and changing subscriber numbers. > As an isolated event, advertising on Substack is no big deal. But if it becomes ubiquitous, the funding model of the platform could be at risk, forcing Substack to either clamp down on this cottage industry or embrace it. Substack could incorporate advertising into its product, but doing so would contradict the platform's commitment to remaining ad-free. So, the ads will be tolerated for as long as Substack does not have a native ad platform through which all ads must flow through.

criddell 6y ago
> But it doesn't work that way. Since there are services that have ad-free tiers I think it can work that way. Hulu*, for example has an ad-free tier and they don't change the price quarterly. * Yes, I know there are something like 3 shows that still have ads, but it doesn't change my argument.
burkaman 6y ago
It doesn't have to be this way. It is possible to decline a money-making opportunity. Can you think of any businesses near you that have blank outdoor wall space, even though they could make good money putting a billboard on it?
- BitwiseFool 6y ago
  In the State of Hawaii the Outdoor Circle successfully made billboards illegal. Businesses can still have signs on their storefronts but that's about it. Many mural artists have filled the void and you can see some in the news story below: https://www.civilbeat.org/2017/08/lets-preserve-and-perpetuate-art-in-public-places/ https://www.civilbeat.org/2017/08/lets-preserve-and-perpetua...

MaggieL 6y ago

Paywall.

vlod 6y ago
see my comment above for: archive.is link

eugeniub 6y ago

Ironically I can’t view this article without disabling my iOS adblocker.

randompwd 6y ago
There's nothing ironic about that. The site hosting the article isn't substack nor is the article a condemnation of advertising.

jelling 6y ago

The risk I see for Substack is that if a writer has enough ad revenue in parallel to their Substack subscriptions they are more likely to jump ship, or at least, threaten to reduce the 10% commission. I haven't used Substack's creator software so not certain if they offer more value than a payment process (or even a vertical-bank designed for creators) would. But neither of those would charge 10%.

mkr-hn 6y ago

This will probably go about as well as Feedburner's RSS ads.

jiofih 6y ago

Can’t read the article as it is behind a paywall :|

icefrakker 6y ago

I wish newspapers would offer a no ads subscription.

black_puppydog 6y ago

I really never saw a convincing argument for why substack would go any other way than platforms before them. They're all liable to the same market pressures. Easy as that. If the paperwork of a company doesn't specifically rule out certain changes to occur upon incorporation, don't rely on those changes not occurring.