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What about it doesn't make sense? Companies can mandate wearing safety gear in dangerous environments (e.g. fall harnesses when working at heights) or for publ

What about it doesn't make sense? Companies can mandate wearing safety gear in dangerous environments (e.g. fall harnesses when working at heights) or for public safety (e.g. hairnets to prevent food contamination). Countries can mandate public health requirements (e.g. disposing of human waste through sewers). What makes vaccination any different?

sojournerc 6y ago
There's not potential life-altering side effects from wearing PPE or using plumbing, and those things are outside the body not injected into it. Seems like a pretty easy distinction to me.
- ghaff 6y ago
  There's plenty of precedent to requiring vaccinations, especially in schools. And the US government has already stated that employers requiring a vaccination in this case is generally OK.
  - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
    And for travel plenty of countries require proof of vaccination or you don't get in the country.
    - paublyrne 6y ago
      Not sure if this the case yet. Any examples? But I can see it becoming the case in the future ...
      - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
        A number of African countries require proof of yellow fever vaccination to enter. The vaccine certificate is issued by each country but conforms to a WHO standard.
    - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
      I should have said require it for other diseases not Covid
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  Not wearing PPE on building site can lead to some very life altering effects. And in construction if you refuse PPE your fired
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    Most employers are reasonable and don't make you do dumb things like wear full PPE for a job that really doesn't deserve it in a poorly ventilated space on the hottest day of the year and other common sense things like that. However, the kind of people who do safety for unreasonable employers (usually process driven BigCos, mines and shipyards are good examples) and the kinds of people who's only exposure to industrial environments is the mandatory safety training they took once upon a time for their internship tend to dominate internet discussions about PPE and safety. This results in some real gems of insanity.
    - DavidPeiffer 6y ago
      Having worked in an enormous heavy manufacturing facility at a company with a very good safety record, I disagree. In the case of working on the hottest days of the year in full PPE, additional mandatory breaks and hydration are required. Additional airflow should be added if in a poorly ventilated space and compatible with the work being done. PPE used should match the risks presented, which should be well documented before starting work. Shortcuts to the standard process, failure to identify when things start going wrong, etc. cause injuries and deaths. Safety culture is super hard to build, taking years of collaboration between management, workers, and unions if applicable. Every group wants nothing more than for the employees to go home the same way they went to work. Any one time you do a task with less than required PPE, probably nothing will happen. But over the course of a career, those "this one time" instances add up and eventually will cause an injury or death.
    - rwmurrayVT 6y ago
      You are always wearing full PPE in a shipyard. They provide ventilation, cool down areas, and scuttlebutts across the yard. The largest demographic experiencing heat issues in the shipyard are younger than 40.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  These vaccines were tested on tens of thousands of people, with no real life altering effects. Sure, there can and will always be one-in-a-million outliers. But that's true about anything, including wearing a helmet.
mjburgess 6y ago
It's a violation of bodily sovereignty in ways those others arent. We regard our bodies as our own possessions, and something like a vaccination is a potentially irreversible change to our body (etc.). This is not an argument to say bodily sovereignty shouldn't be "ignored" here, only that it is a different case. EDIT: anyone want to explain the downvote?
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  Explain: Average anti-vax talking points. It is generally useless to argue against them, and rarely are such points used for, say, legalisation of weed or stopping employment drug tests. Not only that, but vaccinations affect more than just your body. Such a choice can kill someone else if they get a disease a non-vaccinated person carries.
a_imho 6y ago
Specifically coming from the assumption that it should be up to me what I put in my body. I understand there are exception e.g. vaccines mandated by the government (and conversely it is illegal to ingest substances), but that is very far cry from an employer requiring a vaccination. Especially for something like covid. Why not flu shots?
- ghaff 6y ago
  >Why not flu shots? I assume they could if they felt it was important enough. And, for all I know, some hospitals may.
- CydeWeys 6y ago
  No one is forcing you to put anything into your body. But at the same time, no one is forcing any employer to keep you employed. That seems fair. And there are employers that require flu shots, especially in the healthcare/long term care industries. Hell, many (most?) public schools and universities require certain vaccinations to be allowed to attend.
  - a_imho 6y ago
    I don't think that is how it works, we have labour laws for a reason. If vaccines can be mandated by companies where to draw the line?
    - runako 6y ago
      Employers in the US can: - require routine drug testing, even for drugs that are legal in your state - require routine credit checks - mandate attire standards - dictate grooming standards - require employees to routinely expose themselves to hazardous materials - require travel to hazardous locations - perform duties that are known to result in serious injury or loss of life - require vaccines for things like the flu - require employees to sit still in front of a computer for 8+ hours at a time, for months on end. The remedy in the US for people who do not like these factors is to not work for employers that have different tolerances for physical safety than does the employee. I don't see how conditioning employment on receiving a vaccination for Covid is materially more dangerous than requiring an employee to work on sea-based drilling rig or in a coal mine.
thatcat 6y ago
None of those were designed less than one year ago or can cause any possibility of side effects. Forced medication is not the same as forced clothing choice so your argument is technically a strawman.

sojournerc 6y ago

There's not potential life-altering side effects from wearing PPE or using plumbing, and those things are outside the body not injected into it. Seems like a pretty easy distinction to me.

ghaff 6y ago
There's plenty of precedent to requiring vaccinations, especially in schools. And the US government has already stated that employers requiring a vaccination in this case is generally OK.
- Mauricebranagh 6y ago
  And for travel plenty of countries require proof of vaccination or you don't get in the country.
  - paublyrne 6y ago
    Not sure if this the case yet. Any examples? But I can see it becoming the case in the future ...
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      A number of African countries require proof of yellow fever vaccination to enter. The vaccine certificate is issued by each country but conforms to a WHO standard.
  - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
    I should have said require it for other diseases not Covid
Mauricebranagh 6y ago
Not wearing PPE on building site can lead to some very life altering effects. And in construction if you refuse PPE your fired
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  Most employers are reasonable and don't make you do dumb things like wear full PPE for a job that really doesn't deserve it in a poorly ventilated space on the hottest day of the year and other common sense things like that. However, the kind of people who do safety for unreasonable employers (usually process driven BigCos, mines and shipyards are good examples) and the kinds of people who's only exposure to industrial environments is the mandatory safety training they took once upon a time for their internship tend to dominate internet discussions about PPE and safety. This results in some real gems of insanity.
  - DavidPeiffer 6y ago
    Having worked in an enormous heavy manufacturing facility at a company with a very good safety record, I disagree. In the case of working on the hottest days of the year in full PPE, additional mandatory breaks and hydration are required. Additional airflow should be added if in a poorly ventilated space and compatible with the work being done. PPE used should match the risks presented, which should be well documented before starting work. Shortcuts to the standard process, failure to identify when things start going wrong, etc. cause injuries and deaths. Safety culture is super hard to build, taking years of collaboration between management, workers, and unions if applicable. Every group wants nothing more than for the employees to go home the same way they went to work. Any one time you do a task with less than required PPE, probably nothing will happen. But over the course of a career, those "this one time" instances add up and eventually will cause an injury or death.
  - rwmurrayVT 6y ago
    You are always wearing full PPE in a shipyard. They provide ventilation, cool down areas, and scuttlebutts across the yard. The largest demographic experiencing heat issues in the shipyard are younger than 40.
BurningFrog 6y ago
These vaccines were tested on tens of thousands of people, with no real life altering effects. Sure, there can and will always be one-in-a-million outliers. But that's true about anything, including wearing a helmet.

mjburgess 6y ago

It's a violation of bodily sovereignty in ways those others arent. We regard our bodies as our own possessions, and something like a vaccination is a potentially irreversible change to our body (etc.). This is not an argument to say bodily sovereignty shouldn't be "ignored" here, only that it is a different case. EDIT: anyone want to explain the downvote?

Broken_Hippo 6y ago
Explain: Average anti-vax talking points. It is generally useless to argue against them, and rarely are such points used for, say, legalisation of weed or stopping employment drug tests. Not only that, but vaccinations affect more than just your body. Such a choice can kill someone else if they get a disease a non-vaccinated person carries.

a_imho 6y ago

Specifically coming from the assumption that it should be up to me what I put in my body. I understand there are exception e.g. vaccines mandated by the government (and conversely it is illegal to ingest substances), but that is very far cry from an employer requiring a vaccination. Especially for something like covid. Why not flu shots?

ghaff 6y ago
>Why not flu shots? I assume they could if they felt it was important enough. And, for all I know, some hospitals may.
CydeWeys 6y ago
No one is forcing you to put anything into your body. But at the same time, no one is forcing any employer to keep you employed. That seems fair. And there are employers that require flu shots, especially in the healthcare/long term care industries. Hell, many (most?) public schools and universities require certain vaccinations to be allowed to attend.
- a_imho 6y ago
  I don't think that is how it works, we have labour laws for a reason. If vaccines can be mandated by companies where to draw the line?
  - runako 6y ago
    Employers in the US can: - require routine drug testing, even for drugs that are legal in your state - require routine credit checks - mandate attire standards - dictate grooming standards - require employees to routinely expose themselves to hazardous materials - require travel to hazardous locations - perform duties that are known to result in serious injury or loss of life - require vaccines for things like the flu - require employees to sit still in front of a computer for 8+ hours at a time, for months on end. The remedy in the US for people who do not like these factors is to not work for employers that have different tolerances for physical safety than does the employee. I don't see how conditioning employment on receiving a vaccination for Covid is materially more dangerous than requiring an employee to work on sea-based drilling rig or in a coal mine.

thatcat 6y ago

None of those were designed less than one year ago or can cause any possibility of side effects. Forced medication is not the same as forced clothing choice so your argument is technically a strawman.