10 ms·

Wild lynx could be reintroduced into Scottish Highlands

116 points by edward 6y ago

ggm 6y ago
Huge opposition likely from farmers. Cool, but uphill struggle I'd say. Within a boundary? Sure.
- rav 6y ago
  Maybe he could just stick to releasing them on his own land? > In 2018/2019 it was reported that Povlsen owns 221,000 acres (890 km2; 345 sq mi) of land in Scotland, making him the largest landowner there.
  - sambeau 6y ago
    No doubt they will then use it as an excuse to fence the land off and prevent free roaming across it.
    - GordonS 6y ago
      Scotland has had 'freedom to roam' laws for something like 15 years. Aside from a few "common sense" exclusions like quarries and airfields, the only real restriction is that roamers act responsibly. Any other exclusions would need to be passed into law, which is highly unlikely to ever happen. In practice these rights work well for everyone.
      - sambeau 6y ago
        In the debate about reintroducing wolves to Scotland the landowner wanted to fence the land and add it to one of the few "common sense" exclusions. https://www.nathab.com/blog/bringing-wolves-back-to-scotland/ https://www.nathab.com/blog/bringing-wolves-back-to-scotland...
        noizejoy 6y ago
        Thanks for that link - relatively short read, hinting at the multifaceted nature of doing something like this — and it’s not totally obvious what’s selfish and what’s altruistic.
        ggm 6y ago
        With beavers, the case (aside from joy of re-wilding) was clear regarding their effect on up-stream water retention. Beavers are net beneficial in uplands, preventing flooding, at a cost of marginal land usage loss near the stream due to ponds, and less aggressive but nonetheless pretty wet flooding when beaver dams break. With predators, I am unsure what the (quasi?)economic argument would be. I think the environment is healthier with a population of top predators. its possible it would stop rampant deer problems, they eat the living bejesus out of young trees. But the young trees in question are mostly monoculture, cropped trees. We're not talking native forest here mostly, the caledonian forest is a tiny percentage of the plantation state of most of scotlands forestry. (or was, I left in the 80s. I am probably out of date here) A lot of 'beautiful' landscape is totally manufactured, including grouse moors. The de-forestation of britain across the industrial revolution, and then the highland clearances to replace upland small tenant farming with sheep, was about replacing the landscape with .. other landscape. Forestry Commission plantations are a bit soulless, but Edinburgh Universty has been running forestry management degrees since around 1917, and the need for timber in WWI. A lot of "restore nature" is really "put it back the way my grandfather had it" not "put it back to the doggerland days" I like wolves and lynx and beavers and storks. Lots of tourists like them. I don't know (absent CAP market support to farmers) which is more net beneficial longterm, the destructive farming patterns, or the tourism. Both have up and downsides. Non-british resident. I could get "what do you know" answers back. They'd be fair.
- almog 6y ago
  The same debate is going over in the Pyrenees regarding reintroduction of bears. Farmers fear for their sheep (seem to be especially the case on the French side from what I've gathered) but guard dogs seem to reduce their losses tremendously. My main source of information is Steve Cracknell who's a writes about rewilding of the Pyrenees as well as hiking. I encountered his blog and twitter as part of my preparation for my thruehike of the Haute Raute Pyrenees. This is his twitter: https://twitter.com/enmarchant https://twitter.com/enmarchant
  - youngtaff 6y ago
    Sheep farming is pretty uneconomic in the UK, and sheep are destructive beasts so lynx reducing their numbers might be a good thing
    - namenotrequired 6y ago
      > Sheep farming is pretty uneconomic in the UK So it makes sense the farmers would be opposed to anything that may eat their tiny profit margins
      - ggm 6y ago
        if they were wise, they'd see the lynx-kill as a guaranteed income (albiet possibly below full market rate) and thus, a hedge: I believe most successful re-wildings of predators include compensation, so really, when you think about it, its not a huge loss overall. Not a very romantic view I agree, if you're staring at a field of dead lambs and mothers, but farmers need to be philosophical these days. A lot of Australian farmers leave the land shortly after having to shoot stock in drought. Is this really worse?
      - pvaldes 6y ago
        This is unclear and farmers could find that they were wrong about it. Wouldn't be the first time. Farmers lose small sheep to foxes. Lynx clean an area of foxes and defend bigger territories. Yes a couple of lynx can kill a lamb here and there, but currently they have yet twelve foxes in the same area trying to do the same all the time and living under the farm basement, so... what option looks better for the farmers? My bet would be "much less foxes and a lynx"
siltpotato 6y ago
Saw "Wild lynx could be reintroduced" and I wondered what environment used to have a browser but then didn't.
- jfk13 6y ago
  Lynx don't browse, they hunt.
  - DonaldFisk 6y ago
    Whoosh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser)
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
Lynx are extremely photogenic, but I can't help wondering - why? They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. The fact that they were common half a millennium ago when the ecosystem was very different doesn't seem particularly relevant. So if this is just for tourism and/or as a vanity project and there are no solid ecological or scientific reasons, I'm not seeing a convincing justification for this.
- Pet_Ant 6y ago
  Maybe it's a vital step to restoring the ecosystem back to closer to what it was half a millennium ago?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - hashtagjohnt 6y ago
    But what is the value in restoring that ecosystem? I am not saying that is a bad thing (it is probably a good thing), I am just curious what the argument for restoration is here.
    - smnrchrds 6y ago
      There has been many articles written about the success of reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone National Park. I am curious to know what the rationale for lynx in Scotland is, but I imagine the expected outcomes are in line with those observed in Yellowstone. > Wolves are causing a trophic cascade of ecological change, including helping to increase beaver populations and bring back aspen, and vegetation. https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduc...
    - Pet_Ant 6y ago
      That’s funny because to me it seems obvious: to restore the world to a state less effected by humankind. I guess you’ve made me question where that value comes from...
vidarh 6y ago
It's worth noting, with respect to the advice from Norwegian farmers, that Norwegian farmers have an incentive to push for high estimates of predation over other causes of loss, as they get compensation for loss due to predators. That's not to say they don't lose animals to predators, but the estimates of the actual numbers have been fought over in Norway for decades.
- perbu 6y ago
  It is also worth noting that far more sheep die of sickness/exposure than the few that are taken by predators. IIRC 100k sheep are lost and 20k of those are to predators.
- nix23 6y ago
  It's really not a big problem, Switzerland is much smaller and we have 140-180 lynx, around 80 Wolves and some Brown bears. Yes they are some losses, but with herd dogs not allot.
  - canadianfella 6y ago
    there are A lot
  - vidarh 6y ago
    Part of the issue in Norway is that the sheep are not actively herded most of the summer. They get checked on now and again, but not continuously. The farmers basically want to avoid the cost by pushing up the proportion of losses that are due to predators that they get compensation for.
thesis 6y ago
Humans have such a small grasp on this world... it seems most only think in terms of "now" -- Next thing you know people will be trying to reintroduce Wooly Mammoths somehow.
- zokier 6y ago
  > Next thing you know people will be trying to reintroduce Wooly Mammoths somehow. Yes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_woolly_mammoth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_woolly_mammoth
pinipedman 6y ago
They should re-introduce moose, wolves, and brown bears as well. But lynx would make a great start.
- mrec 6y ago
  They're already working on bison: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25846480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25846480 ETA: and we apparently have some moose and wild boar now, on a small scale: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/apr/15/wildlife.endangeredspecies https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/apr/15/wildlife...
  - toomanybeersies 6y ago
    Beavers too: https://www.rspb.org.uk/our-work/our-positions-and-casework/our-positions/species/beaver-reintroduction-in-the-uk/ https://www.rspb.org.uk/our-work/our-positions-and-casework/...
flatiron 6y ago
They must have poor internet if they need a console web browser.
blackcats 6y ago
Why is the web browser outdoors?
jacobr 6y ago
I found it interesting that 48 year old Anders Povlsen is using his fortune buying up estates, trading with the state to get large adjacent areas to rewild - to the point where he’s now the largest private land owner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Holch_Povlsen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Holch_Povlsen
suzzer99 6y ago
When do we bring back the cave bear?

116 points by edward 6y ago

ggm 6y ago

Huge opposition likely from farmers. Cool, but uphill struggle I'd say. Within a boundary? Sure.

rav 6y ago
Maybe he could just stick to releasing them on his own land? > In 2018/2019 it was reported that Povlsen owns 221,000 acres (890 km2; 345 sq mi) of land in Scotland, making him the largest landowner there.
- sambeau 6y ago
  No doubt they will then use it as an excuse to fence the land off and prevent free roaming across it.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    Scotland has had 'freedom to roam' laws for something like 15 years. Aside from a few "common sense" exclusions like quarries and airfields, the only real restriction is that roamers act responsibly. Any other exclusions would need to be passed into law, which is highly unlikely to ever happen. In practice these rights work well for everyone.
    - sambeau 6y ago
      In the debate about reintroducing wolves to Scotland the landowner wanted to fence the land and add it to one of the few "common sense" exclusions. https://www.nathab.com/blog/bringing-wolves-back-to-scotland/ https://www.nathab.com/blog/bringing-wolves-back-to-scotland...
      - noizejoy 6y ago
        Thanks for that link - relatively short read, hinting at the multifaceted nature of doing something like this — and it’s not totally obvious what’s selfish and what’s altruistic.
        ggm 6y ago
        With beavers, the case (aside from joy of re-wilding) was clear regarding their effect on up-stream water retention. Beavers are net beneficial in uplands, preventing flooding, at a cost of marginal land usage loss near the stream due to ponds, and less aggressive but nonetheless pretty wet flooding when beaver dams break. With predators, I am unsure what the (quasi?)economic argument would be. I think the environment is healthier with a population of top predators. its possible it would stop rampant deer problems, they eat the living bejesus out of young trees. But the young trees in question are mostly monoculture, cropped trees. We're not talking native forest here mostly, the caledonian forest is a tiny percentage of the plantation state of most of scotlands forestry. (or was, I left in the 80s. I am probably out of date here) A lot of 'beautiful' landscape is totally manufactured, including grouse moors. The de-forestation of britain across the industrial revolution, and then the highland clearances to replace upland small tenant farming with sheep, was about replacing the landscape with .. other landscape. Forestry Commission plantations are a bit soulless, but Edinburgh Universty has been running forestry management degrees since around 1917, and the need for timber in WWI. A lot of "restore nature" is really "put it back the way my grandfather had it" not "put it back to the doggerland days" I like wolves and lynx and beavers and storks. Lots of tourists like them. I don't know (absent CAP market support to farmers) which is more net beneficial longterm, the destructive farming patterns, or the tourism. Both have up and downsides. Non-british resident. I could get "what do you know" answers back. They'd be fair.
almog 6y ago
The same debate is going over in the Pyrenees regarding reintroduction of bears. Farmers fear for their sheep (seem to be especially the case on the French side from what I've gathered) but guard dogs seem to reduce their losses tremendously. My main source of information is Steve Cracknell who's a writes about rewilding of the Pyrenees as well as hiking. I encountered his blog and twitter as part of my preparation for my thruehike of the Haute Raute Pyrenees. This is his twitter: https://twitter.com/enmarchant https://twitter.com/enmarchant
- youngtaff 6y ago
  Sheep farming is pretty uneconomic in the UK, and sheep are destructive beasts so lynx reducing their numbers might be a good thing
  - namenotrequired 6y ago
    > Sheep farming is pretty uneconomic in the UK So it makes sense the farmers would be opposed to anything that may eat their tiny profit margins
    - ggm 6y ago
      if they were wise, they'd see the lynx-kill as a guaranteed income (albiet possibly below full market rate) and thus, a hedge: I believe most successful re-wildings of predators include compensation, so really, when you think about it, its not a huge loss overall. Not a very romantic view I agree, if you're staring at a field of dead lambs and mothers, but farmers need to be philosophical these days. A lot of Australian farmers leave the land shortly after having to shoot stock in drought. Is this really worse?
    - pvaldes 6y ago
      This is unclear and farmers could find that they were wrong about it. Wouldn't be the first time. Farmers lose small sheep to foxes. Lynx clean an area of foxes and defend bigger territories. Yes a couple of lynx can kill a lamb here and there, but currently they have yet twelve foxes in the same area trying to do the same all the time and living under the farm basement, so... what option looks better for the farmers? My bet would be "much less foxes and a lynx"

siltpotato 6y ago

Saw "Wild lynx could be reintroduced" and I wondered what environment used to have a browser but then didn't.

jfk13 6y ago
Lynx don't browse, they hunt.
- DonaldFisk 6y ago
  Whoosh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynx_(web_browser)

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

Lynx are extremely photogenic, but I can't help wondering - why? They're not endangered, they are aggressive predators, and Scotland's ecology isn't obviously in need of them. The fact that they were common half a millennium ago when the ecosystem was very different doesn't seem particularly relevant. So if this is just for tourism and/or as a vanity project and there are no solid ecological or scientific reasons, I'm not seeing a convincing justification for this.

Pet_Ant 6y ago
Maybe it's a vital step to restoring the ecosystem back to closer to what it was half a millennium ago?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- hashtagjohnt 6y ago
  But what is the value in restoring that ecosystem? I am not saying that is a bad thing (it is probably a good thing), I am just curious what the argument for restoration is here.
  - smnrchrds 6y ago
    There has been many articles written about the success of reintroduction of wolves to Yellowstone National Park. I am curious to know what the rationale for lynx in Scotland is, but I imagine the expected outcomes are in line with those observed in Yellowstone. > Wolves are causing a trophic cascade of ecological change, including helping to increase beaver populations and bring back aspen, and vegetation. https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduction-changes-ecosystem https://www.yellowstonepark.com/things-to-do/wolf-reintroduc...
  - Pet_Ant 6y ago
    That’s funny because to me it seems obvious: to restore the world to a state less effected by humankind. I guess you’ve made me question where that value comes from...

vidarh 6y ago

It's worth noting, with respect to the advice from Norwegian farmers, that Norwegian farmers have an incentive to push for high estimates of predation over other causes of loss, as they get compensation for loss due to predators. That's not to say they don't lose animals to predators, but the estimates of the actual numbers have been fought over in Norway for decades.

perbu 6y ago
It is also worth noting that far more sheep die of sickness/exposure than the few that are taken by predators. IIRC 100k sheep are lost and 20k of those are to predators.
nix23 6y ago
It's really not a big problem, Switzerland is much smaller and we have 140-180 lynx, around 80 Wolves and some Brown bears. Yes they are some losses, but with herd dogs not allot.
- canadianfella 6y ago
  there are A lot
- vidarh 6y ago
  Part of the issue in Norway is that the sheep are not actively herded most of the summer. They get checked on now and again, but not continuously. The farmers basically want to avoid the cost by pushing up the proportion of losses that are due to predators that they get compensation for.

thesis 6y ago

Humans have such a small grasp on this world... it seems most only think in terms of "now" -- Next thing you know people will be trying to reintroduce Wooly Mammoths somehow.

zokier 6y ago
> Next thing you know people will be trying to reintroduce Wooly Mammoths somehow. Yes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_woolly_mammoth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revival_of_the_woolly_mammoth

pinipedman 6y ago

They should re-introduce moose, wolves, and brown bears as well. But lynx would make a great start.

mrec 6y ago
They're already working on bison: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25846480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25846480 ETA: and we apparently have some moose and wild boar now, on a small scale: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/apr/15/wildlife.endangeredspecies https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/apr/15/wildlife...
- toomanybeersies 6y ago
  Beavers too: https://www.rspb.org.uk/our-work/our-positions-and-casework/our-positions/species/beaver-reintroduction-in-the-uk/ https://www.rspb.org.uk/our-work/our-positions-and-casework/...

flatiron 6y ago

They must have poor internet if they need a console web browser.

blackcats 6y ago

Why is the web browser outdoors?

jacobr 6y ago

I found it interesting that 48 year old Anders Povlsen is using his fortune buying up estates, trading with the state to get large adjacent areas to rewild - to the point where he’s now the largest private land owner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Holch_Povlsen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Holch_Povlsen

suzzer99 6y ago

When do we bring back the cave bear?