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Christian values are deeply individualistic. Capitalism is the practical expression of individualism. There are ways for individualist thought to develop with

Christian values are deeply individualistic. Capitalism is the practical expression of individualism. There are ways for individualist thought to develop without religion, but it just happened that christianity had already given the west an individualist viewpoint and it was easier to accept the values of capitalism and individual freedom this way. Sure, now there's a big pushback against individualism, but it was good while it lasted.

MontagFTB 6y ago
I’m genuinely curious: what biblical sources exist that teach Christian individualism above other ways of living?
- riwsky 6y ago
  The story of Abraham (where he goes to sacrifice his beloved son, Isaac) emphasizes one man’s individual devotion to God, over and above any societal (or even his own) sense of consequentialist ethics; while I would probably agree that Christianity as a whole (and particularly the words biblically attributed to Jesus) is prosocial, you still have big name Christian philosophers with an individualist bent—heck, you could even argue that modern individualist philosophy starts with Christianity, in the seminal existentialist works of Kierkegaard.
  - mbesto 6y ago
    Couldn't you basically argue this for any major religions' worship of said prophets/God(s)?
  - MontagFTB 6y ago
    Off the top of my head I’d counter with another OT reference: the Ten Commandments. One could argue every one is an effort to get an individual’s perspective off of themselves as the primary object of worship, and to focus on others as more important than themselves (God among them.)
  - sn41 6y ago
    Abraham would be relevant to Judaism and Islam as well, so attributing individualism to this is somewhat doubtful. In the New Testament, as you mention, society and gathering is actually encouraged. The simplest is: “When two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:20 Moreover, "Render unto Caesar things that are Caesar's" avoids any kind of confrontation between personal worship and fulfilling duties to the secular government.
manesioz 6y ago
> Christian values are deeply individualistic. Arguable. For example look at Acts 2:44 which reads "All the believers were together and had everything in common." Or Luke 3:11 which states "Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same." In fact, there is an entire ideology referred to as [Christian communism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism)
- clarkmoody 6y ago
  Sure, but he's commanding the individual to share voluntarily. The early church didn't force its members to give up their property: they did it willingly. Charity is not collectivist or non-capitalist.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > The early church didn't force its members to give up their property: they did it willingly. Acts 5 paints a rather different picture, with the threat of being struck down where you stand for holding out being the ultimate cudgel.
    - virmundi 6y ago
      That's a poor reading of Acts 5, from a literary perspective. 5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” To point out the salient quote, "Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal?" The reason for the death was lying. It was lying to the community. It was lying to look good to community, but in fact not having its interests at heart. This also stands as evidence that Christianity, while wholeheartedly communialist is not communist nor socialist as defined Marx or Engles. The State, i.e. the Church/Apostles, does not lay claim to the means of production or personal/private property. It asks for charity. Communism has the State own everything. If anyone doesn't fall in line, they're killed.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Christian values are deeply individualistic. Christians groups have historically has values from pretty much maximally communitarian to maximally individualistic, which interpretation a Christian views as the correct view as Christianity will naturally correspond pretty exactly to that Christian’s own preferences. Are Christian values inherently individualistic? Sure, to an individualist who is also a Christian. To a Christian who is communitarian, the opposite will be seen as true.
- nine_k 6y ago
  Since salvation is a strictly individual business, I'd say an irreducible seed of individualism is there.
  - paganel 6y ago
    Not all Christians focus on salvation, I'd say this is mostly a Christian-Evangelical issue, so to speak (I used to be a Christian Orthodox).
  - fennecfoxen 6y ago
    While that is a theology you may have, others will reference the parable of the vine or 1 Corinthians 12:12-28, in support of theology such as the communion of saints. If there is an irreducible seed of individualism, so too might there be an irreducible seed of community.
  - Mikhail_Edoshin 6y ago
    Salvation is not individual business, but personal responsibility.
watwut 6y ago
> Christian values are deeply individualistic. Capitalism is the practical expression of individualism. Absolutely not. The largest church is catholic and their are really big on obeisance. They monasteries are literal opposite of "expression of individualism" and so are expectations on their priests. And that trickles down to every level.

MontagFTB 6y ago

I’m genuinely curious: what biblical sources exist that teach Christian individualism above other ways of living?

riwsky 6y ago
The story of Abraham (where he goes to sacrifice his beloved son, Isaac) emphasizes one man’s individual devotion to God, over and above any societal (or even his own) sense of consequentialist ethics; while I would probably agree that Christianity as a whole (and particularly the words biblically attributed to Jesus) is prosocial, you still have big name Christian philosophers with an individualist bent—heck, you could even argue that modern individualist philosophy starts with Christianity, in the seminal existentialist works of Kierkegaard.
- mbesto 6y ago
  Couldn't you basically argue this for any major religions' worship of said prophets/God(s)?
- MontagFTB 6y ago
  Off the top of my head I’d counter with another OT reference: the Ten Commandments. One could argue every one is an effort to get an individual’s perspective off of themselves as the primary object of worship, and to focus on others as more important than themselves (God among them.)
- sn41 6y ago
  Abraham would be relevant to Judaism and Islam as well, so attributing individualism to this is somewhat doubtful. In the New Testament, as you mention, society and gathering is actually encouraged. The simplest is: “When two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:20 Moreover, "Render unto Caesar things that are Caesar's" avoids any kind of confrontation between personal worship and fulfilling duties to the secular government.

manesioz 6y ago

> Christian values are deeply individualistic. Arguable. For example look at Acts 2:44 which reads "All the believers were together and had everything in common." Or Luke 3:11 which states "Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same." In fact, there is an entire ideology referred to as [Christian communism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism)

clarkmoody 6y ago
Sure, but he's commanding the individual to share voluntarily. The early church didn't force its members to give up their property: they did it willingly. Charity is not collectivist or non-capitalist.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > The early church didn't force its members to give up their property: they did it willingly. Acts 5 paints a rather different picture, with the threat of being struck down where you stand for holding out being the ultimate cudgel.
  - virmundi 6y ago
    That's a poor reading of Acts 5, from a literary perspective. 5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” To point out the salient quote, "Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal?" The reason for the death was lying. It was lying to the community. It was lying to look good to community, but in fact not having its interests at heart. This also stands as evidence that Christianity, while wholeheartedly communialist is not communist nor socialist as defined Marx or Engles. The State, i.e. the Church/Apostles, does not lay claim to the means of production or personal/private property. It asks for charity. Communism has the State own everything. If anyone doesn't fall in line, they're killed.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Christian values are deeply individualistic. Christians groups have historically has values from pretty much maximally communitarian to maximally individualistic, which interpretation a Christian views as the correct view as Christianity will naturally correspond pretty exactly to that Christian’s own preferences. Are Christian values inherently individualistic? Sure, to an individualist who is also a Christian. To a Christian who is communitarian, the opposite will be seen as true.

nine_k 6y ago
Since salvation is a strictly individual business, I'd say an irreducible seed of individualism is there.
- paganel 6y ago
  Not all Christians focus on salvation, I'd say this is mostly a Christian-Evangelical issue, so to speak (I used to be a Christian Orthodox).
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  While that is a theology you may have, others will reference the parable of the vine or 1 Corinthians 12:12-28, in support of theology such as the communion of saints. If there is an irreducible seed of individualism, so too might there be an irreducible seed of community.
- Mikhail_Edoshin 6y ago
  Salvation is not individual business, but personal responsibility.

watwut 6y ago

> Christian values are deeply individualistic. Capitalism is the practical expression of individualism. Absolutely not. The largest church is catholic and their are really big on obeisance. They monasteries are literal opposite of "expression of individualism" and so are expectations on their priests. And that trickles down to every level.