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It's almost like you didn't even read the summary of the book this thread is highlighting. > The empire these nomads build is rapacious; more than once, the La

It's almost like you didn't even read the summary of the book this thread is highlighting. > The empire these nomads build is rapacious; more than once, the Lakota are forced to move westward because they have looted the neighboring tribes out of existence and are therefore out of farmed food. > The various poxes overturn intra-native relations: at various points on their journey, the Lakota narrowly dodge or are less brutally affected by diseases that ravage the tribes already present in the land, making conquest that much easier. The Lakota, as many other native tribes, ended up exterminating other groups in just the centuries we've documented. This seems to be the general pattern of every culture on Earth - Europeans, Native Americans, Africans, etc. In fact, if there's a main point one should derive from the Native Americans' story, it'd include being very wary of welcoming foreign peoples onto your lands, even if it's just for trade. Diversity did NOT make the Lakota stronger (especially when it carried Smallpox, liquor, etc).

29athrowaway 6y ago
If the Lakota are "rapacious" then, I wonder what would be the best adjective for their successor. In only 245 years of existence, the US: has almost completely depleted the Ogallala acquifer, one of the largest acquifer in the world, once thought to be inexhaustible. And the same will happen soon to the California Central valley. The American bison, an animal that once roamed in large herds that lifted enough dirt to darken the sky, is now almost extinct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg From rivers and oceans full of fish where you could see fish jumping everywhere, to people eating mediocre farmed fish due to overfishing. From a continent full of fertile land and biodiversity, to a place where topsoil will be almost impossible to find in 60 years. From a country full of insects and birds, to a place completely devoid of them that will soon become a desert. Native Americans were able to live sustainably for over 10,000 years here. Next time you sit to have lunch, try to putting aside any ingredients made from Native American crops: tomato, potato, corn, squash, avocado, peppers, most species of berries, chocolate, etc. Then avoid preparing any recipes that do not have a strictly domestic origin. I bet after you do so, you'll be left with nothing to eat. You benefit from diversity and cultural exchange every day without even noticing. The very language you used to write that comment is the product of endless cultural exchanges... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1oZf-OxxEY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1oZf-OxxEY
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  Anyone concerned about water issues should consider reading Salt Dreams and reading up on the history of Fresno water development. Fresno actually has had years when they have increased their level of ground water. Some comments by me about such things: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20528584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20528584 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=fresno%20water%20doreenmichele&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
  - scruple 6y ago
    > reading up on the history of Fresno water development. Fresno actually has had years when they have increased their level of ground water. I'm very interested in fresh water topics broadly but in particular those of California (because I live here and am concerned about the drought and our future). Thanks for the book recommendation and for the writing you've done on the situation in the Fresno area!
    - DoreenMichele 6y ago
      Oh, no problem. I really enjoyed both Salt Dreams and the book about Fresno water development history linked in some of those comments (https://www.worldcat.org/title/water-for-a-thirsty-land-the-consolidated-irrigation-district-and-its-canal-development-history/oclc/36954078&referer=brief_results https://www.worldcat.org/title/water-for-a-thirsty-land-the-...). Fresno has a really rich history with regards to water development and I don't understand why it doesn't get more press for that. I also liked the bus system there. Meanwhile, Fresno is the butt of jokes in movies and otherwise mostly gets ignored.
      - scruple 6y ago
        > Fresno has a really rich history with regards to water development and I don't understand why it doesn't get more press for that. I also liked the bus system there. > Meanwhile, Fresno is the butt of jokes in movies and otherwise mostly gets ignored. I've never cared for the disparaging attitude that many Californians have towards Fresno and the rest of the Central Valley, either, but then I am not a California native, either. At the same time, I'm also definitely guilty of ignoring the place and it's history. I honestly only know where it is on the map as a pit stop before going into the Sierras and Yosemite. I placed a hold on a copy of Salt Dreams with the library. I'm really looking forward to reading it. The only books I really had any awareness of around this topic were Cadillac Desert and a couple of others that I vaguely recall ever reading.
yters 6y ago
Interesting. I am curious to what extent the indigenous people were wiped out by europeans vs their own enterprising kindred who were quicker to jump on new methods of war and looting.
- hiram112 6y ago
  New methods of war and looting brought upon by the horse culture is a great documented case study we have of indigenous tribes in North America. The "cowboys and Indians" stereotype that has been popularized around the world was really only a few tribes in N. America, and it lasted for only about 200 years from when the Spanish explorers left horses on the plains until the Indians were finally subdued. The vast majority of tribes in N. America were not nomadic, on foot, and are undocumented because they were long gone by the time Europeans arrived. The Lakota in the north and the Comanche in the south were the two main tribes who mastered the horse, exterminated and pushed out every other tribe, and gave the most plausible defense against American settlers and troops. They were not native to the large areas they controlled when Columbus arrived. Over the next centuries, they mastered the horse, became "war machines", and together with their allies, completely annihilated the existing tribes in the areas we now consider their original "homelands".

29athrowaway 6y ago

If the Lakota are "rapacious" then, I wonder what would be the best adjective for their successor. In only 245 years of existence, the US: has almost completely depleted the Ogallala acquifer, one of the largest acquifer in the world, once thought to be inexhaustible. And the same will happen soon to the California Central valley. The American bison, an animal that once roamed in large herds that lifted enough dirt to darken the sky, is now almost extinct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg From rivers and oceans full of fish where you could see fish jumping everywhere, to people eating mediocre farmed fish due to overfishing. From a continent full of fertile land and biodiversity, to a place where topsoil will be almost impossible to find in 60 years. From a country full of insects and birds, to a place completely devoid of them that will soon become a desert. Native Americans were able to live sustainably for over 10,000 years here. Next time you sit to have lunch, try to putting aside any ingredients made from Native American crops: tomato, potato, corn, squash, avocado, peppers, most species of berries, chocolate, etc. Then avoid preparing any recipes that do not have a strictly domestic origin. I bet after you do so, you'll be left with nothing to eat. You benefit from diversity and cultural exchange every day without even noticing. The very language you used to write that comment is the product of endless cultural exchanges... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1oZf-OxxEY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1oZf-OxxEY

DoreenMichele 6y ago
Anyone concerned about water issues should consider reading Salt Dreams and reading up on the history of Fresno water development. Fresno actually has had years when they have increased their level of ground water. Some comments by me about such things: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20528584 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20528584 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=fresno%20water%20doreenmichele&sort=byPopularity&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- scruple 6y ago
  > reading up on the history of Fresno water development. Fresno actually has had years when they have increased their level of ground water. I'm very interested in fresh water topics broadly but in particular those of California (because I live here and am concerned about the drought and our future). Thanks for the book recommendation and for the writing you've done on the situation in the Fresno area!
  - DoreenMichele 6y ago
    Oh, no problem. I really enjoyed both Salt Dreams and the book about Fresno water development history linked in some of those comments (https://www.worldcat.org/title/water-for-a-thirsty-land-the-consolidated-irrigation-district-and-its-canal-development-history/oclc/36954078&referer=brief_results https://www.worldcat.org/title/water-for-a-thirsty-land-the-...). Fresno has a really rich history with regards to water development and I don't understand why it doesn't get more press for that. I also liked the bus system there. Meanwhile, Fresno is the butt of jokes in movies and otherwise mostly gets ignored.
    - scruple 6y ago
      > Fresno has a really rich history with regards to water development and I don't understand why it doesn't get more press for that. I also liked the bus system there. > Meanwhile, Fresno is the butt of jokes in movies and otherwise mostly gets ignored. I've never cared for the disparaging attitude that many Californians have towards Fresno and the rest of the Central Valley, either, but then I am not a California native, either. At the same time, I'm also definitely guilty of ignoring the place and it's history. I honestly only know where it is on the map as a pit stop before going into the Sierras and Yosemite. I placed a hold on a copy of Salt Dreams with the library. I'm really looking forward to reading it. The only books I really had any awareness of around this topic were Cadillac Desert and a couple of others that I vaguely recall ever reading.

yters 6y ago

Interesting. I am curious to what extent the indigenous people were wiped out by europeans vs their own enterprising kindred who were quicker to jump on new methods of war and looting.

hiram112 6y ago
New methods of war and looting brought upon by the horse culture is a great documented case study we have of indigenous tribes in North America. The "cowboys and Indians" stereotype that has been popularized around the world was really only a few tribes in N. America, and it lasted for only about 200 years from when the Spanish explorers left horses on the plains until the Indians were finally subdued. The vast majority of tribes in N. America were not nomadic, on foot, and are undocumented because they were long gone by the time Europeans arrived. The Lakota in the north and the Comanche in the south were the two main tribes who mastered the horse, exterminated and pushed out every other tribe, and gave the most plausible defense against American settlers and troops. They were not native to the large areas they controlled when Columbus arrived. Over the next centuries, they mastered the horse, became "war machines", and together with their allies, completely annihilated the existing tribes in the areas we now consider their original "homelands".