3 ms·

"I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me" Title is very missleading, your web browser works and google does not block you, it's all about DRM. "

by Thaxll 6y ago

"I tried creating a web browser, and Google blocked me" Title is very missleading, your web browser works and google does not block you, it's all about DRM. "For the last 2 years I’ve been working on a web browser that now cannot be completed because Google, the creators of the open source browser Chrome, won’t allow DRM in an open source project." This is crap, you should probably have known that before starting the project? As a dev it should be some common sense that you can't just playback 4k video from Netflix with a built-in Browser.

Tepix 6y ago
DRM that Google controls
- Thaxll 6y ago
  You're free to open a website that directly stream some mpeg ts without encryption, Google is not to blame, the people that actually want that are the publisher. Youtube does not use DRM fyi.
  - missblit 6y ago
    Parts of youtube use widevine (I think mainly for movie / TV rentals and the like)
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  Netflix issues several types of DRM license, not just Widevine, Google's marketshare here is fairly modest.
coryfklein 6y ago
Users will balk if you call your application a web browser and it doesn't stream video from most of the major video providers.
- Thaxll 6y ago
  There is a big difference between playing some mp4 / webm on a website and Netflix, if every random dev could implement a DRM for Netflix most likely DRM would be useless.
  - nicolas_t 6y ago
    To be fair, given that anything that hits any streaming service is ripped and available to pirating within an hour, DRM has proven to be useless. It doesn't stop pirates at all but it does annoy actual paying customers.
zucker42 6y ago
> Title is very missleading, your web browser works and google does not block you, it's all about DRM. Google, Microsoft, and Apple effectively control access to DRM. They are acting as a cartel to prevent competitors. So, yeah perhaps it would be best to add Microsoft and Apple to the list of offenders, along with the MPA, and heck even Congress (which criminalized breaking DRM even for otherwise legal purposes). But I'd hardly call the title very misleading. Regarding your second point, it's understandable that he focused on the functionality before the licensing, because Widevine would probably have been even less supportive if he had a working product. Honestly I don't understand your complaint; someone had to make a browser and get screwed over, otherwise the defenders of Google et. al would argue that Widevine could be licensed by competing browsers. And anyways, these minute arguments completely ignore the overarching point that DRM subverts the premise of the web and prevents disruption and competitive.
eecks 6y ago
> As a dev it should be some common sense that you can't just playback 4k video from Netflix with a built-in Browser. why not?
- btilly 6y ago
  Because if you can playback 4k video from Netflix with a browser under your control, then you can playback 4k video to a file and thereby create a cracked copy that can be pirated. DRM is built on a self-contradictory premise that tremendous amounts of effort are going into making work. Namely, if we save content in a special format, then we can make it impossible for it to be used except as we decide. However they then put that software on hardware controlled by people whose interests are not necessarily aligned with that goal. And once there, that software can be changed. That hardware may be an emulation that can also be changed. And so on and so forth. To make the fiction appear to work, they need to find every way that they can to avoid escape. They add detection code that tries to identify running under emulation and blocks it. They obfuscate their software in every way that they can. They only place their software in other software that they trust. They embed various checks that nothing looks suspicious. And even so, they are doomed to fail. See https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/10/google-mending-another-crack-in-widevine/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/10/google-mending-another-c... for example. But they just need to make it hard enough to bypass the encryption that it is hard to get pirated copies. And make the penalties for trying to do so to discourage a pirate scene. And this they have done.
  - Aerroon 6y ago
    >Because if you can playback 4k video from Netflix with a browser under your control, then you can playback 4k video to a file and thereby create a cracked copy that can be pirated. Can't you just record the screen to do this? Or split the signal in the cable or have the screen itself send the data on to another device. At the very least you can always just physically record the screen itself. At the end of the day, you have to ask whether this is worth it. Does it actually help sales to offset the costs?
    - 6y ago
Gunax 6y ago
The thing about titles is that they often give a summary. Of course it does not tell the whole story--but I don't think it's misleading nor do I think it's crap.
NeekGerd 6y ago
The article being from 2019, I highly doubt that DRM was such a common issue in 2017, so much that you had to anticipate for it. 4k wasn't that common either. For the reference, at the time, I believe Netflix was even using Silverlight. And Google is the blocking entity here, because they are in charge of delivering licenses for Widevine, which is specifically what you need to play DRMed content. Not so misleading IMO.

by Thaxll 6y ago

Tepix 6y ago

DRM that Google controls

Thaxll 6y ago
You're free to open a website that directly stream some mpeg ts without encryption, Google is not to blame, the people that actually want that are the publisher. Youtube does not use DRM fyi.
- missblit 6y ago
  Parts of youtube use widevine (I think mainly for movie / TV rentals and the like)
Mindwipe 6y ago
Netflix issues several types of DRM license, not just Widevine, Google's marketshare here is fairly modest.

coryfklein 6y ago

Users will balk if you call your application a web browser and it doesn't stream video from most of the major video providers.

Thaxll 6y ago
There is a big difference between playing some mp4 / webm on a website and Netflix, if every random dev could implement a DRM for Netflix most likely DRM would be useless.
- nicolas_t 6y ago
  To be fair, given that anything that hits any streaming service is ripped and available to pirating within an hour, DRM has proven to be useless. It doesn't stop pirates at all but it does annoy actual paying customers.

zucker42 6y ago

> Title is very missleading, your web browser works and google does not block you, it's all about DRM. Google, Microsoft, and Apple effectively control access to DRM. They are acting as a cartel to prevent competitors. So, yeah perhaps it would be best to add Microsoft and Apple to the list of offenders, along with the MPA, and heck even Congress (which criminalized breaking DRM even for otherwise legal purposes). But I'd hardly call the title very misleading. Regarding your second point, it's understandable that he focused on the functionality before the licensing, because Widevine would probably have been even less supportive if he had a working product. Honestly I don't understand your complaint; someone had to make a browser and get screwed over, otherwise the defenders of Google et. al would argue that Widevine could be licensed by competing browsers. And anyways, these minute arguments completely ignore the overarching point that DRM subverts the premise of the web and prevents disruption and competitive.

eecks 6y ago

> As a dev it should be some common sense that you can't just playback 4k video from Netflix with a built-in Browser. why not?

btilly 6y ago
Because if you can playback 4k video from Netflix with a browser under your control, then you can playback 4k video to a file and thereby create a cracked copy that can be pirated. DRM is built on a self-contradictory premise that tremendous amounts of effort are going into making work. Namely, if we save content in a special format, then we can make it impossible for it to be used except as we decide. However they then put that software on hardware controlled by people whose interests are not necessarily aligned with that goal. And once there, that software can be changed. That hardware may be an emulation that can also be changed. And so on and so forth. To make the fiction appear to work, they need to find every way that they can to avoid escape. They add detection code that tries to identify running under emulation and blocks it. They obfuscate their software in every way that they can. They only place their software in other software that they trust. They embed various checks that nothing looks suspicious. And even so, they are doomed to fail. See https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/10/google-mending-another-crack-in-widevine/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/10/google-mending-another-c... for example. But they just need to make it hard enough to bypass the encryption that it is hard to get pirated copies. And make the penalties for trying to do so to discourage a pirate scene. And this they have done.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  >Because if you can playback 4k video from Netflix with a browser under your control, then you can playback 4k video to a file and thereby create a cracked copy that can be pirated. Can't you just record the screen to do this? Or split the signal in the cable or have the screen itself send the data on to another device. At the very least you can always just physically record the screen itself. At the end of the day, you have to ask whether this is worth it. Does it actually help sales to offset the costs?
  - 6y ago

Gunax 6y ago

The thing about titles is that they often give a summary. Of course it does not tell the whole story--but I don't think it's misleading nor do I think it's crap.

NeekGerd 6y ago

The article being from 2019, I highly doubt that DRM was such a common issue in 2017, so much that you had to anticipate for it. 4k wasn't that common either. For the reference, at the time, I believe Netflix was even using Silverlight. And Google is the blocking entity here, because they are in charge of delivering licenses for Widevine, which is specifically what you need to play DRMed content. Not so misleading IMO.