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Here's a phenomenon I've recently noticed: posts that put down women, or demonstrate ways in which they may be inferior to men, get to the front page. Then the

Here's a phenomenon I've recently noticed: posts that put down women, or demonstrate ways in which they may be inferior to men, get to the front page. Then the armchair evolutionary biologists post comments of dubious veracity about biological sex disparity. I submitted a link to an article about the lack of differences between genders in mathematics, and it generated no upmods or comments. I initially assumed it was bad timing, or not particularly interesting to hackers. Now this submission which is clearly not hacker news has found its way to the font page & I'm starting to wonder if my gender is simply not welcome here.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago
I voted you up because it does seem that this is a younger, testosterone-loaded crowd at times. Some of the comments -- I can't help but picture a pimple-headed nerd spouting something so silly. As far as I know, all genders are welcome here. (They're only 2, also as far as I know, at least until the Trans-Neptunians arrive)
theoneill 18y ago
If I were you I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. There's a lot of randomness in what gets noticed and voted onto the front page, especially on sundays. And we all submit things and wonder why no one votes them up.
- dgabriel 18y ago
  Of course, it may certainly be sudden onset apophenia, but this in conjunction with some of the responses to Jessica's recent blog entry on female founders, along with a number of other threads that have popped up here... my forlorn submission may have nothing to do with anything, but the pattern is there. Women are viewed as genetically inferior at this hacker stuff, and the prevailing theory is that it might have something to do with a giraffe hunt at the dawn of time, or biological clocks, or the belief that since young women can get laid, they don't have to work as hard at life.
  - ardit33 18y ago
    no. But as the old saying: "Show me, don't tell me". In the name of progress, I suggest to people stop screaming "it is so unfair, women are just as good at [insert capability here] as men are.", how about actually encoraing them to build the next google/facebook/lisp/reddit/wikipedia ... whatever we think is hacker worthy. Then they will definetly get the respect they deserve. Until then, sorry, saying women are just as good hacker as men, and they are just left behind by the "establishment" it is all talk, and talk is cheap.
    - dgabriel 18y ago
      The moment we are born, all of us, we are labeled, bagged, tagged, and forced into roles by our families, our communities, our schools, and our peers, and all of those people are also categorized at birth, and taught to believe the same things. This is powerful stuff, and to discount it entirely is foolish. That said, you are correct. Talk (type?) is cheap. I'll now bow out of this conversation in favor of doing something more productive, like the dishes.
      - ardit33 18y ago
        yes, and my mom wanted me to be a dentist. Guess what, I still did what I wanted to (an engineer). And moved in another continent to do it (from Europe to USA). You saying that like male kids don't ever get pressured to do things they don't really want to do. And as countless studies have shown, in a society where women have more choice, they tend to shun computer science related studies, and go for other things they like.
    - blurry 18y ago
      You could say the same thing about black hackers. Show me a black hacker who built a google/facebook/lisp/reddit/wikipedia. The real truth is, in this year 2008, intellectually forward white males (i.e. the hacker community) have graduated past racism but still consider women a socially acceptable put-down target. Sorry but while your earlier point that the computer-related news sites tend to be "gettoes" full of young males frustrated with their inability to score rings true, your current point on "objective" lack of achievement among women does not, since I can safely bet that you and other similarly minded posters on here are not willing to extend it to non-whites. The simple fact is, these forums have a fair share of loud mysoginists and the community tolerates it. Shame.
vlad 18y ago
If at Harvard, the first and single assignment you submitted for peer review in a class didn't go over well, did you walk up to the professor and classmates and accuse them of sexism? Because that is what you're doing now. Secondly, the writer, editor, and most-quoted person in the article are all women. Their article contains text that says that 20 year old males have lots of happiness to look forward to--the prime audience of this site. Therefore, I doubt the story was voted up because of what you perceive is a negative write up about women; more likely it was because the submission title mentioned that men get happier as they age. I've also seen inappropriate comments. If there is a comment you disagree with, you should reply to them specifically.
- dgabriel 18y ago
  I should not have mentioned my submission. I've been around for a while. I've submitted dozens of things to reddit over the past couple of years, and only one of them got more than 5 upvotes. I know how this stuff works, and it's certainly not meant to be a whine about how people don't upmod my stuff. My problem is also not with the article, which doesn't go into causes, merely states their findings. Until I stepped in, all the comments were about how women are probably unhappy because they stop being pretty, and men are happy because they start being rich, and can finally have sex with younger women. These are gross stereotypes, and should be offensive to everyone. Instead, they're accepted as common sense. If you want evidence, feel free to scroll around.
ardit33 18y ago
I think this kinds of article resonates with the hacker community, which tend to be in the geekier side, and male, and younger. Most guys in their 20s have had some kind of trouble with dating at some point, the people that spend an inordinary amount of time in front of the computer, and interested in "un-exiting stuff", such as science, physics, mathematics, will have even harder time to find good mates. I am in my 20s too, and have all my stuff together, and I manage to find dates, but it is really hard to actually find a good relationship. Why? Women in their 20s get an disproprotionate amount of attention, and have a larger set of choices. And dealing with women in their 20s is even harder (unless you are willing to play games). Too be fair, both guys and girls in their early 20s seem not to know what they want. So, there is actually some kind of personal satisfaction (or schafenfreude) when you learn that eventually there is some kind of fairness to life, and their is a payback for all the partying and careless dating, and that things will get better if you are a guy. And since most of comunnity in here are guys, things like this will get upvoted.

DanielBMarkham 18y ago

I voted you up because it does seem that this is a younger, testosterone-loaded crowd at times. Some of the comments -- I can't help but picture a pimple-headed nerd spouting something so silly. As far as I know, all genders are welcome here. (They're only 2, also as far as I know, at least until the Trans-Neptunians arrive)

theoneill 18y ago

If I were you I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions. There's a lot of randomness in what gets noticed and voted onto the front page, especially on sundays. And we all submit things and wonder why no one votes them up.

dgabriel 18y ago
Of course, it may certainly be sudden onset apophenia, but this in conjunction with some of the responses to Jessica's recent blog entry on female founders, along with a number of other threads that have popped up here... my forlorn submission may have nothing to do with anything, but the pattern is there. Women are viewed as genetically inferior at this hacker stuff, and the prevailing theory is that it might have something to do with a giraffe hunt at the dawn of time, or biological clocks, or the belief that since young women can get laid, they don't have to work as hard at life.
- ardit33 18y ago
  no. But as the old saying: "Show me, don't tell me". In the name of progress, I suggest to people stop screaming "it is so unfair, women are just as good at [insert capability here] as men are.", how about actually encoraing them to build the next google/facebook/lisp/reddit/wikipedia ... whatever we think is hacker worthy. Then they will definetly get the respect they deserve. Until then, sorry, saying women are just as good hacker as men, and they are just left behind by the "establishment" it is all talk, and talk is cheap.
  - dgabriel 18y ago
    The moment we are born, all of us, we are labeled, bagged, tagged, and forced into roles by our families, our communities, our schools, and our peers, and all of those people are also categorized at birth, and taught to believe the same things. This is powerful stuff, and to discount it entirely is foolish. That said, you are correct. Talk (type?) is cheap. I'll now bow out of this conversation in favor of doing something more productive, like the dishes.
    - ardit33 18y ago
      yes, and my mom wanted me to be a dentist. Guess what, I still did what I wanted to (an engineer). And moved in another continent to do it (from Europe to USA). You saying that like male kids don't ever get pressured to do things they don't really want to do. And as countless studies have shown, in a society where women have more choice, they tend to shun computer science related studies, and go for other things they like.
  - blurry 18y ago
    You could say the same thing about black hackers. Show me a black hacker who built a google/facebook/lisp/reddit/wikipedia. The real truth is, in this year 2008, intellectually forward white males (i.e. the hacker community) have graduated past racism but still consider women a socially acceptable put-down target. Sorry but while your earlier point that the computer-related news sites tend to be "gettoes" full of young males frustrated with their inability to score rings true, your current point on "objective" lack of achievement among women does not, since I can safely bet that you and other similarly minded posters on here are not willing to extend it to non-whites. The simple fact is, these forums have a fair share of loud mysoginists and the community tolerates it. Shame.

vlad 18y ago

If at Harvard, the first and single assignment you submitted for peer review in a class didn't go over well, did you walk up to the professor and classmates and accuse them of sexism? Because that is what you're doing now. Secondly, the writer, editor, and most-quoted person in the article are all women. Their article contains text that says that 20 year old males have lots of happiness to look forward to--the prime audience of this site. Therefore, I doubt the story was voted up because of what you perceive is a negative write up about women; more likely it was because the submission title mentioned that men get happier as they age. I've also seen inappropriate comments. If there is a comment you disagree with, you should reply to them specifically.

dgabriel 18y ago
I should not have mentioned my submission. I've been around for a while. I've submitted dozens of things to reddit over the past couple of years, and only one of them got more than 5 upvotes. I know how this stuff works, and it's certainly not meant to be a whine about how people don't upmod my stuff. My problem is also not with the article, which doesn't go into causes, merely states their findings. Until I stepped in, all the comments were about how women are probably unhappy because they stop being pretty, and men are happy because they start being rich, and can finally have sex with younger women. These are gross stereotypes, and should be offensive to everyone. Instead, they're accepted as common sense. If you want evidence, feel free to scroll around.

ardit33 18y ago

I think this kinds of article resonates with the hacker community, which tend to be in the geekier side, and male, and younger. Most guys in their 20s have had some kind of trouble with dating at some point, the people that spend an inordinary amount of time in front of the computer, and interested in "un-exiting stuff", such as science, physics, mathematics, will have even harder time to find good mates. I am in my 20s too, and have all my stuff together, and I manage to find dates, but it is really hard to actually find a good relationship. Why? Women in their 20s get an disproprotionate amount of attention, and have a larger set of choices. And dealing with women in their 20s is even harder (unless you are willing to play games). Too be fair, both guys and girls in their early 20s seem not to know what they want. So, there is actually some kind of personal satisfaction (or schafenfreude) when you learn that eventually there is some kind of fairness to life, and their is a payback for all the partying and careless dating, and that things will get better if you are a guy. And since most of comunnity in here are guys, things like this will get upvoted.