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I agree. Some would even take it further and argue that there is _no_ way to stop the Bitcoin network. The technology is like, as Nick Bostrom puts it, one of t

I agree. Some would even take it further and argue that there is _no_ way to stop the Bitcoin network. The technology is like, as Nick Bostrom puts it, one of those balls that humanity pulls out of the urn of invention which once pulled the ball can never go back in [1]. Let's just hope that Bitcoin is not one of those bad balls but rather one that pushes humanity forward. Perhaps, Bitcoin is the [2] "sly roundabout way introduce [good money] that [governments] can't stop [2]." 1: https://www.wired.com/story/technology-could-end-humanity-how-stop-it/ https://www.wired.com/story/technology-could-end-humanity-ho... 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYhEDxFwFRU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYhEDxFwFRU

bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago
The Pandora's Box of cryptocurrency has been opened and nothing the world's governments do can stop it... Though some will surely try at the ISP level at least.
noxer 6y ago
Its totally absurd to think there is _no_ way to stop it. All it takes is money. There may be no legal ground for a state to do this but technically it sure is possible. There is also no need to ever attack the network itself. All that matters is the price. By buying BTC and creating a bubble a state could crash the price so dramatically that it would be very unlikely to recover. Imagine if the price would just go up from no on until lets say 1 million USD per BTC that's +3000% maybe over the span of 1 or 2 years. Then sell and let it crash probably -99.9% I'd still be worth 1k USD but at the same time no one but the original crypt anarchist would care anymore. Would that cost a shitload of money? yes millions, but technically a state could print that money so it doesn't really matter something like tether could do this basically for free. Also since they know when they let it crash they can recover a huge chuck of what they put in simply by shorting the top. Way simpler and cheaper than building mining farms that would be worthless after successfully destroying BTC. Remember the goal would not be to technically turn it off just render it irrelevant. Thats what people got wrong. They think the state would want to shut it down but putting it back to where it was 10 years ago would totally be sufficient.
- usehackernews 6y ago
  I think you’re quite misinformed. This would take many many many billions, not “many millions” as you said. The daily trading volume for bitcoin is $64 billion. Buying “many millions” worth of bitcoin would not achieve what you’re proposing.
  - noxer 6y ago
    How is the volume relevant? It has no effect in this scenario. You need to buy a significant amount of the BTC in circulation to reduce the supply. You buy a certain percentage of BTCs it doesn't matter how many billions in volume there is. Buying so much will raise the price which in turn will raise the demand and the bubble starts. Every time the bubble is about to pop you need to buy again to repeat the process. It gets more expensive every time but at the same time the amount of BTC in circulation gets smaller and so the amount the attacker has can move and manipulate the market more. The is no need to go strait up the attacker can temporary crash the market by selling some and bet on falling prices. Then buy back more with the profit. A state with a money printer can not loose and can manipulate however much they want. >Buying “many millions” worth of bitcoin would not achieve what you’re proposing. IIRC in 2019 "someone" supposed bough BTCs for about 100 million USD in a short time frame and it raised the price by several %. Its not the 100million that moves the market so much is the demand it creates when people see the price going up. No need to buy the bubble just manipulate the market into creating one. Also 100 million may sound like a lot of money but for a large state this isn't especially if its printed anyway. And they can recover most by betting on falling prices when they let the bubble burst. The people who exits before the bust are the only people who actually have to be "paid" (they made profit) by the an attack. While those who stay in or join will lose everything in the end and cover most of the cost of the attack. Remember after the attack BTC would be almost worthless and the attacker would have sold it all while betting on lower prices. All the people who get liquidated indirectly payed for the attack. Everyone who holds BTC an bought it higher than the end price indirectly helped create the bubble. You'd definitely need lots of money to do this but that doesn't mean it costs a lot in the end. Most of it is a zero sum game.

bitxbitxbitcoin 6y ago

The Pandora's Box of cryptocurrency has been opened and nothing the world's governments do can stop it... Though some will surely try at the ISP level at least.

noxer 6y ago

Its totally absurd to think there is _no_ way to stop it. All it takes is money. There may be no legal ground for a state to do this but technically it sure is possible. There is also no need to ever attack the network itself. All that matters is the price. By buying BTC and creating a bubble a state could crash the price so dramatically that it would be very unlikely to recover. Imagine if the price would just go up from no on until lets say 1 million USD per BTC that's +3000% maybe over the span of 1 or 2 years. Then sell and let it crash probably -99.9% I'd still be worth 1k USD but at the same time no one but the original crypt anarchist would care anymore. Would that cost a shitload of money? yes millions, but technically a state could print that money so it doesn't really matter something like tether could do this basically for free. Also since they know when they let it crash they can recover a huge chuck of what they put in simply by shorting the top. Way simpler and cheaper than building mining farms that would be worthless after successfully destroying BTC. Remember the goal would not be to technically turn it off just render it irrelevant. Thats what people got wrong. They think the state would want to shut it down but putting it back to where it was 10 years ago would totally be sufficient.

usehackernews 6y ago
I think you’re quite misinformed. This would take many many many billions, not “many millions” as you said. The daily trading volume for bitcoin is $64 billion. Buying “many millions” worth of bitcoin would not achieve what you’re proposing.
- noxer 6y ago
  How is the volume relevant? It has no effect in this scenario. You need to buy a significant amount of the BTC in circulation to reduce the supply. You buy a certain percentage of BTCs it doesn't matter how many billions in volume there is. Buying so much will raise the price which in turn will raise the demand and the bubble starts. Every time the bubble is about to pop you need to buy again to repeat the process. It gets more expensive every time but at the same time the amount of BTC in circulation gets smaller and so the amount the attacker has can move and manipulate the market more. The is no need to go strait up the attacker can temporary crash the market by selling some and bet on falling prices. Then buy back more with the profit. A state with a money printer can not loose and can manipulate however much they want. >Buying “many millions” worth of bitcoin would not achieve what you’re proposing. IIRC in 2019 "someone" supposed bough BTCs for about 100 million USD in a short time frame and it raised the price by several %. Its not the 100million that moves the market so much is the demand it creates when people see the price going up. No need to buy the bubble just manipulate the market into creating one. Also 100 million may sound like a lot of money but for a large state this isn't especially if its printed anyway. And they can recover most by betting on falling prices when they let the bubble burst. The people who exits before the bust are the only people who actually have to be "paid" (they made profit) by the an attack. While those who stay in or join will lose everything in the end and cover most of the cost of the attack. Remember after the attack BTC would be almost worthless and the attacker would have sold it all while betting on lower prices. All the people who get liquidated indirectly payed for the attack. Everyone who holds BTC an bought it higher than the end price indirectly helped create the bubble. You'd definitely need lots of money to do this but that doesn't mean it costs a lot in the end. Most of it is a zero sum game.