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> There is one thing that has been and is always going to be counterproductive, especially in such situations: blind actionism. Many people flooded the Internet

> There is one thing that has been and is always going to be counterproductive, especially in such situations: blind actionism. Many people flooded the Internet (read: forums, Reddit, bug trackers of projects), inciting panic and suggesting to move to some other “free” hosted platform. This is clearly not a solution. Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. It can become very expensive if you end up in court.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
In addition, there is huge benefit if you can persuade a large company to defend against this. GitHub/Microsoft is one of the few entities that actually has the financial and legal firepower to take on the recording and music industry. The smaller hosts may not have the financial and legal cushion to do anything but rollover if the music industry lawyers send them a notice.
skocznymroczny 6y ago
Any hosting platform in the US.
boomboomsubban 6y ago
> Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. It can become very expensive if you end up in court. Given that this request was completely fraudulent, no matter your take on whether youtube-dl itself is legal the project itself is not an unauthorized post of copyright material, doesn't this give groups like the RIAA a free pass to do whatever they want until someone challenges them? While it's good that github eventually returned it, their willingness to comply with such a sham should make projects consider moving from them.
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  > Given that this request was completely fraudulent, no matter your take on whether youtube-dl itself is legal the project itself is not an unauthorized post of copyright material, doesn't this give groups like the RIAA a free pass to do whatever they want until someone challenges them? The takedown request didn't claim the project was an unauthorised post of copyright material. It claimed it was a DRM circumvention measure, and US law is sufficiently vague on that matter it really can't be said definitively one way or another if that's correct unless someone is willing to litigate it. Nobody does, in this case. Certainly, describing the request as "completely fraudulent" is wrong. It may or may not have been valid, but the legislation is sufficiently vague in most of the US and Europe that it's entirely possible this could go to court and the RIAA would win.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    >. It claimed it was a DRM circumvention measure The takedown notices do not apply to DRM circumvention measures, only copyright material. I agree it's completely possible that a court case could rule against youtube-dl, but the only method for taking down a DRM circumvention tool is to get a court order.
    - Mindwipe 6y ago
      DRM circumvention measures don't have a takedown provision as such, but the hoster becomes jointly liable as soon as they are notified, which was the point of the letter.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        If this were true, it would make no sense for github to have reinstated youtube-dl. I assume such legal liability would need the start of a lawsuit to be valid.
        Mindwipe 6y ago
        > If this were true, it would make no sense for github to have reinstated youtube-dl. Github took a punt that the RIAA weren't going to take it to court, because they don't want to risk establishing that the circumvention provisions are more limited in a court case. They got a lot of free PR out of it with little risk, that's why they did it. As I said at the time, I wouldn't want to litigate on either side of this case. The law is badly drafted, there's little precedent, and I think it's a genuine 50/50. Any lawyer on both sides would advise you not to do so. I suspect the main reason is that the RIAA can now go back to Google and say they are in breach of contract for not preventing downloads on YouTube using technical protection measures, and push them to switch to Widevine on everything with any music in it.
- wonder_er 6y ago
  Based on how easily the EFF resolved the problem by sending that notice to GitHub, it feels like this could be an easy problem to solve in the future.. The RIAA got effortlessly blocked here with a couple of lawyer man hours, which contained information gathered from a handful of really interesting blog posts. I would say this entire story is something to celebrate, because it shows how easily a single person could stop this. Mitchell L. Stoltz, Senior Staff Attorney at the EFF signed this letter, which probably took no more than handful of man hours to compile. Pretty great roi.
  - stretchcat 6y ago
    Not every project will have a sufficiently high profile for the EFF to notice. Relying on the EFF like this doesn't scale, isn't future proof, and doesn't address the long tail of the problem.
    - munk-a 6y ago
      I think it'll most likely come down to a question of cost per incident - while a couple of lawyer hours is certainly relatively cheap if that same cost is required for every similar RIAA take down request then you'd need to look at how many hours it takes for RIAA to identify a good target and produce a take down notice. The effortlessness of this particular incident gives me hope that if the volume of take downs increased then maybe the EFF or someone else could essentially put together a form reply.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    >The RIAA got effortlessly blocked here with a couple of lawyer man hours, which contained information gathered from a handful of really interesting blog posts. It's not clear that the RIAA needed to spend any real lawyer man hours making the request, I don't think a designated agent needs to be a lawyer but even if they do they just send a form letter.
  - mattnewton 6y ago
    Even if the RIAA payed 1.5 lawyer hours to the EFF’s 1, this is a bad trade IMO. And I doubt the RIAA is spending significant time on these cases based on their record of general sloppyness (ex- the time the RIAA sued charter for infringement on songs they didn’t have the copyright to, after making the same mistake with Cox https://abovethelaw.com/2020/03/riaa-realizes-it-sued-charter-over-a-bunch-of-songs-it-doesnt-hold-the-copyrights-for/ https://abovethelaw.com/2020/03/riaa-realizes-it-sued-charte...)
jsight 6y ago
Advocating for even more centralization isn't necessarily more productive. I'd love for someone to manage a mirror of all github repos in a place that is less likely to face these kinds of legal jeopardies. Why not try to direct people toward that, rather than direct them towards crossing their fingers and hoping the lone company wins the fight?
- withinboredom 6y ago
  Because the only way to “win” a “battle” is to take a stand and “fight,” running and hiding isn’t winning. By building up sufficient case law, everyone can do things better and the next time this comes in front of law makers, there will be a better understanding of edge cases and better laws can be written. I’d really love to see a Developer’s Guild or Union that could collectively take on these sorts of fights and argue for all software devs. The EFF can’t stand alone.
  - jsight 6y ago
    Interestingly enough, sometimes its the only way to "lose" them. Centralized control within companies has its own issues.
1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago
[deleted]
- stretchcat 6y ago
  AFAIK NewPipe does not use youtube-dl.
musicale 6y ago
> Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. It can become very expensive if you end up in court. Yet it wasn't actually DMCA takedown request, but a strange new kind of takedown request, where a a private company claimed (falsely) that youtube-dl violated section 1201 and demanded that github remove it. Unfortunately github seems to have codified these new "1201 takedowns" which didn't seem to exist previously.
- kmeisthax 6y ago
  Even if DMCA 512 doesn't cover DMCA 1201 violating circumvention tools, that wouldn't make GitHub in the clear to host them. If anything, it would actually increase their liability: the whole point of DMCA 512 is to provide a process by which an ISP can disclaim liability for contributory copyright infringement. If they refuse the request on the grounds of "you can't DMCA a circumvention tool", then they're still liable regardless of if a DMCA 512 takedown can or can't apply to a 1201 violation, since there's still an underlying tort of distributing a 1201 circumvention tool. If they accept the request, and get sued anyway, they could at least argue that they have a safe harbor (or should have a safe harbor).
creatonez 6y ago
> Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. Gitlab so far has a history of not responding to bogus requests
- dtrailin 6y ago
  Where can I see a list of DMCA requests that Gitlab has received and which ones Gitlab has chosen not to comply with?
Nextgrid 6y ago
> Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. The Pirate Bay would disagree? Somehow they've been mostly online for over 10 years despite blatantly and obviously facilitating copyright infringement. Now YouTube-DL doesn't actively intend for its software to be used for infringement, however its inherent capability to do so is apparently enough to piss off the media industry, so maybe it's best to learn from the aforementioned "expert" in this field and move to infrastructure that's outright immune to the industry's complaints?

RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago

In addition, there is huge benefit if you can persuade a large company to defend against this. GitHub/Microsoft is one of the few entities that actually has the financial and legal firepower to take on the recording and music industry. The smaller hosts may not have the financial and legal cushion to do anything but rollover if the music industry lawyers send them a notice.

skocznymroczny 6y ago

Any hosting platform in the US.

boomboomsubban 6y ago

> Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. It can become very expensive if you end up in court. Given that this request was completely fraudulent, no matter your take on whether youtube-dl itself is legal the project itself is not an unauthorized post of copyright material, doesn't this give groups like the RIAA a free pass to do whatever they want until someone challenges them? While it's good that github eventually returned it, their willingness to comply with such a sham should make projects consider moving from them.

Mindwipe 6y ago
> Given that this request was completely fraudulent, no matter your take on whether youtube-dl itself is legal the project itself is not an unauthorized post of copyright material, doesn't this give groups like the RIAA a free pass to do whatever they want until someone challenges them? The takedown request didn't claim the project was an unauthorised post of copyright material. It claimed it was a DRM circumvention measure, and US law is sufficiently vague on that matter it really can't be said definitively one way or another if that's correct unless someone is willing to litigate it. Nobody does, in this case. Certainly, describing the request as "completely fraudulent" is wrong. It may or may not have been valid, but the legislation is sufficiently vague in most of the US and Europe that it's entirely possible this could go to court and the RIAA would win.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >. It claimed it was a DRM circumvention measure The takedown notices do not apply to DRM circumvention measures, only copyright material. I agree it's completely possible that a court case could rule against youtube-dl, but the only method for taking down a DRM circumvention tool is to get a court order.
  - Mindwipe 6y ago
    DRM circumvention measures don't have a takedown provision as such, but the hoster becomes jointly liable as soon as they are notified, which was the point of the letter.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      If this were true, it would make no sense for github to have reinstated youtube-dl. I assume such legal liability would need the start of a lawsuit to be valid.
      - Mindwipe 6y ago
        > If this were true, it would make no sense for github to have reinstated youtube-dl. Github took a punt that the RIAA weren't going to take it to court, because they don't want to risk establishing that the circumvention provisions are more limited in a court case. They got a lot of free PR out of it with little risk, that's why they did it. As I said at the time, I wouldn't want to litigate on either side of this case. The law is badly drafted, there's little precedent, and I think it's a genuine 50/50. Any lawyer on both sides would advise you not to do so. I suspect the main reason is that the RIAA can now go back to Google and say they are in breach of contract for not preventing downloads on YouTube using technical protection measures, and push them to switch to Widevine on everything with any music in it.
wonder_er 6y ago
Based on how easily the EFF resolved the problem by sending that notice to GitHub, it feels like this could be an easy problem to solve in the future.. The RIAA got effortlessly blocked here with a couple of lawyer man hours, which contained information gathered from a handful of really interesting blog posts. I would say this entire story is something to celebrate, because it shows how easily a single person could stop this. Mitchell L. Stoltz, Senior Staff Attorney at the EFF signed this letter, which probably took no more than handful of man hours to compile. Pretty great roi.
- stretchcat 6y ago
  Not every project will have a sufficiently high profile for the EFF to notice. Relying on the EFF like this doesn't scale, isn't future proof, and doesn't address the long tail of the problem.
  - munk-a 6y ago
    I think it'll most likely come down to a question of cost per incident - while a couple of lawyer hours is certainly relatively cheap if that same cost is required for every similar RIAA take down request then you'd need to look at how many hours it takes for RIAA to identify a good target and produce a take down notice. The effortlessness of this particular incident gives me hope that if the volume of take downs increased then maybe the EFF or someone else could essentially put together a form reply.
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >The RIAA got effortlessly blocked here with a couple of lawyer man hours, which contained information gathered from a handful of really interesting blog posts. It's not clear that the RIAA needed to spend any real lawyer man hours making the request, I don't think a designated agent needs to be a lawyer but even if they do they just send a form letter.
- mattnewton 6y ago
  Even if the RIAA payed 1.5 lawyer hours to the EFF’s 1, this is a bad trade IMO. And I doubt the RIAA is spending significant time on these cases based on their record of general sloppyness (ex- the time the RIAA sued charter for infringement on songs they didn’t have the copyright to, after making the same mistake with Cox https://abovethelaw.com/2020/03/riaa-realizes-it-sued-charter-over-a-bunch-of-songs-it-doesnt-hold-the-copyrights-for/ https://abovethelaw.com/2020/03/riaa-realizes-it-sued-charte...)

jsight 6y ago

Advocating for even more centralization isn't necessarily more productive. I'd love for someone to manage a mirror of all github repos in a place that is less likely to face these kinds of legal jeopardies. Why not try to direct people toward that, rather than direct them towards crossing their fingers and hoping the lone company wins the fight?

withinboredom 6y ago
Because the only way to “win” a “battle” is to take a stand and “fight,” running and hiding isn’t winning. By building up sufficient case law, everyone can do things better and the next time this comes in front of law makers, there will be a better understanding of edge cases and better laws can be written. I’d really love to see a Developer’s Guild or Union that could collectively take on these sorts of fights and argue for all software devs. The EFF can’t stand alone.
- jsight 6y ago
  Interestingly enough, sometimes its the only way to "lose" them. Centralized control within companies has its own issues.

1vuio0pswjnm7 6y ago

[deleted]

stretchcat 6y ago
AFAIK NewPipe does not use youtube-dl.

musicale 6y ago

> Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. It can become very expensive if you end up in court. Yet it wasn't actually DMCA takedown request, but a strange new kind of takedown request, where a a private company claimed (falsely) that youtube-dl violated section 1201 and demanded that github remove it. Unfortunately github seems to have codified these new "1201 takedowns" which didn't seem to exist previously.

kmeisthax 6y ago
Even if DMCA 512 doesn't cover DMCA 1201 violating circumvention tools, that wouldn't make GitHub in the clear to host them. If anything, it would actually increase their liability: the whole point of DMCA 512 is to provide a process by which an ISP can disclaim liability for contributory copyright infringement. If they refuse the request on the grounds of "you can't DMCA a circumvention tool", then they're still liable regardless of if a DMCA 512 takedown can or can't apply to a 1201 violation, since there's still an underlying tort of distributing a 1201 circumvention tool. If they accept the request, and get sued anyway, they could at least argue that they have a safe harbor (or should have a safe harbor).

creatonez 6y ago

> Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. Gitlab so far has a history of not responding to bogus requests

dtrailin 6y ago
Where can I see a list of DMCA requests that Gitlab has received and which ones Gitlab has chosen not to comply with?

Nextgrid 6y ago

> Any hosting platform will sooner or later have to comply with such a request. The Pirate Bay would disagree? Somehow they've been mostly online for over 10 years despite blatantly and obviously facilitating copyright infringement. Now YouTube-DL doesn't actively intend for its software to be used for infringement, however its inherent capability to do so is apparently enough to piss off the media industry, so maybe it's best to learn from the aforementioned "expert" in this field and move to infrastructure that's outright immune to the industry's complaints?