5 ms·

But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor camps. As I said via my sources, the evidence for forced labor is very dodgy. Ajit Singh: "‘Forced lab

But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor camps. As I said via my sources, the evidence for forced labor is very dodgy. Ajit Singh: "‘Forced labor’ stories on China brought to you by US gov, NATO, arms industry to drive Cold War PR blitz" https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-industry-cold-war/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nat... Some people go to prison for being extremists. Some people go to mandatory reeducation for being extremists. Some people are wrongly convicted, with the prosecutor not having done its job well, and that's wrong. But you can't compare mandatory forced reeducation (like a super-boarding school for adults), and instances of lazy prosecutors, to concentration camps; that's a totally different level of crime that's not even in the same ballpark. You just conjured up the word "holocaust denial". Not sure whether you are implying I am like a holocaust denier. But don't you think that such a serious accusation, requires serious evidence? So far I haven't seen you addressing any of the actual content that my sources discuss. Again, if you argue whether people should be treated as humanely as possible, then I agree. But you can't brush terrorism and the US involvement in Afghanistan, under a carpet and pretend like they're not relevant and like they're wholly-independent issues. Again: what else is China supposed to do? It's easy to say "choice x is bad" without considering whether there are better choices. Has anybody found a better solution to terrorism? Even France is now talking about things very similar to Chinese reeducation camps. Do you also denounce the US war on terror as an equally, if not bigger human rights violation? Do you believe the US deserves the same treatment as the one you think China should receive? If you do then I'll believe you are arguing in good faith, because selectively enforcing human rights is how it is weaponized nowadays.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jeremysalwen 6y ago
You can claim that you are not pro-CCCP, but when you reject the clear evidence provided by numerous well respected an neutral news organizations that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being locked up in camps without committing a crime and without a trial, simply because thegrayzone.com calls it U.S. "propaganda", you are being pro-CCCP in your actions, regardless of what you proclaim. You need to understand,the people in German concentration camps were accused of betraying the German state, supporting terrorism, or hurting Germany and its people. The German government did not say "we are taking all the Jews and gassing them", they said they were taking criminals, traitors, and their sympathizers, and sending them to re-education camps where we will use labor to re-educate them. https://training.ehri-project.eu/nazi-concentration-camps https://training.ehri-project.eu/nazi-concentration-camps > During 1933-34 some 100 concentration camps existed throughout Germany, and more than 100,000 detainees went through them. The purpose of the camps was correctional because detainees of "Aryan blood" were to be "re-educated" by means of violence and hard discipline, slave labor and propaganda in order to make them give up earlier ideas and beliefs and merge into the conformist “Volksgemeinschaft” or "people's community," which the Nazis proclaimed. It was not until later that the extermination was really ramped up, and it was not until after the war that the full scope of the genocide was revealed. And as another commenter pointed out, there actually were multiple different types of camps, some which were labor camps (such as auschwitz), and some which were extermination camps (such as sobibor). Now, you claim to be arguing that the re-education camps are not concentration camps, but the plain words of your argument make it clear that you agree that the re-education camps indeed fit the definition of a concentration camp. Instead, you seem to mainly be arguing that concentration camps are not necessarily so bad, since they don't involve literally mass murdering Muslims, and that they are actually necessary (??), so you prefer not to call them concentration camps since it has bad associations. But understand that yes, it is entirely appropriate to compare the Chinese concentration camps to the Nazi ones, because just on the basis of the description you gave of the Chinese concentration camps, they match the description of the camps as understood by the German public at the time, and some prisoners actually were treated in that way.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > when you reject the clear evidence provided by numerous well respected an neutral news organizations that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being locked up in camps without committing a crime and without a trial, simply because "well-respected and neutral news organizations"? Adrien Zenz publically admitted that the BBC paid him to write a bad report about Uyghurs! Again, watch the video and see the evidence. Why do you glance over the fact that the UN, another well-respected organization, visited and reported favorably? I won't let you define who I am. I have a say in that. Seems to me more like you're so fanatically anti-China that you can't help but label everyone who's not as zealous, as "pro-CCP". This is a false dichotomy. No, I don't support literal concentration camps. No I'm not arguing that actual concentration camps shouldn't be called as such because that sounds bad. I'm arguing that the standard for evidence should be very high because it's a very serious accusation, and that this standard hasn't been met! Until the evidence is clear, it's irresponsible to assume there are concentration camps. You keep trying to link me back to nazis and keep painting me as a concentration camp supporter, but you keep avoiding 60% of the arguments I put forth (where I showed ahain and again how problematic your sources are), focussing instead on a few strawmans. Do you think my concerns are like pro-Nazi Germans worried about their image? Don't you remember Iraq and the non-existant WMDs? The result of that is a literal genocide by the hands of the US and its allies! Weapons manufacturers are cooking up consent for a war with China. They've deceived us again and again; see earlier instances: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin-powell-knew-about-iraq-fifteen-years-ago-and-what-he-told-the-un/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin... and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony How long will you let yourself and your zeal to see nazis everywhere, to be used to cause actual atrocities? So I ask you again: do you denounce the US war on terror? Do you denounce the verifiable concentration camps at the US border? Are you really arguing in good faith?
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > No, I don't support literal concentration camps You do, you've been doing it all through this thread.
DanBC 6y ago
> But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor camps. You're wrong, there are, and this is well established. > Some people go to prison for being extremists. Some people go to mandatory reeducation for being extremists Let's look at this extremism. Here's what China says is extremist: “His wife wore veils.” “He has one more child than allowed by the family planning policy.” “He prayed after each meal.” https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideological-viruses/chinas-campaign-repression-against-xinjiangs https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideologica...
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > You're wrong, there are, and this is well established. You're wrong, you conveniently refuse to acknowledge the UN visit which said otherwise, and the muslim countries who testified otherwise. You conveniently ignore addressing the many other sources I cite that indicate otherwise. You are closing your eyes and supporting a false atrocity. > Here's what China says is extremist: I literally said that cases of wrong conviction exist and that I condemn wrong convictions. I literally said that I don't agree with their way of using too broad strokes. In your zeal to see nazis everywhere, you completely ignore everything I said that indicates otherwise. While spending so much time accusing me, you still refuse to condemn the US war on terror and literal concentration camps at the US border. Now why's that?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jeremysalwen 6y ago

You can claim that you are not pro-CCCP, but when you reject the clear evidence provided by numerous well respected an neutral news organizations that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being locked up in camps without committing a crime and without a trial, simply because thegrayzone.com calls it U.S. "propaganda", you are being pro-CCCP in your actions, regardless of what you proclaim. You need to understand,the people in German concentration camps were accused of betraying the German state, supporting terrorism, or hurting Germany and its people. The German government did not say "we are taking all the Jews and gassing them", they said they were taking criminals, traitors, and their sympathizers, and sending them to re-education camps where we will use labor to re-educate them. https://training.ehri-project.eu/nazi-concentration-camps https://training.ehri-project.eu/nazi-concentration-camps > During 1933-34 some 100 concentration camps existed throughout Germany, and more than 100,000 detainees went through them. The purpose of the camps was correctional because detainees of "Aryan blood" were to be "re-educated" by means of violence and hard discipline, slave labor and propaganda in order to make them give up earlier ideas and beliefs and merge into the conformist “Volksgemeinschaft” or "people's community," which the Nazis proclaimed. It was not until later that the extermination was really ramped up, and it was not until after the war that the full scope of the genocide was revealed. And as another commenter pointed out, there actually were multiple different types of camps, some which were labor camps (such as auschwitz), and some which were extermination camps (such as sobibor). Now, you claim to be arguing that the re-education camps are not concentration camps, but the plain words of your argument make it clear that you agree that the re-education camps indeed fit the definition of a concentration camp. Instead, you seem to mainly be arguing that concentration camps are not necessarily so bad, since they don't involve literally mass murdering Muslims, and that they are actually necessary (??), so you prefer not to call them concentration camps since it has bad associations. But understand that yes, it is entirely appropriate to compare the Chinese concentration camps to the Nazi ones, because just on the basis of the description you gave of the Chinese concentration camps, they match the description of the camps as understood by the German public at the time, and some prisoners actually were treated in that way.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
> when you reject the clear evidence provided by numerous well respected an neutral news organizations that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being locked up in camps without committing a crime and without a trial, simply because "well-respected and neutral news organizations"? Adrien Zenz publically admitted that the BBC paid him to write a bad report about Uyghurs! Again, watch the video and see the evidence. Why do you glance over the fact that the UN, another well-respected organization, visited and reported favorably? I won't let you define who I am. I have a say in that. Seems to me more like you're so fanatically anti-China that you can't help but label everyone who's not as zealous, as "pro-CCP". This is a false dichotomy. No, I don't support literal concentration camps. No I'm not arguing that actual concentration camps shouldn't be called as such because that sounds bad. I'm arguing that the standard for evidence should be very high because it's a very serious accusation, and that this standard hasn't been met! Until the evidence is clear, it's irresponsible to assume there are concentration camps. You keep trying to link me back to nazis and keep painting me as a concentration camp supporter, but you keep avoiding 60% of the arguments I put forth (where I showed ahain and again how problematic your sources are), focussing instead on a few strawmans. Do you think my concerns are like pro-Nazi Germans worried about their image? Don't you remember Iraq and the non-existant WMDs? The result of that is a literal genocide by the hands of the US and its allies! Weapons manufacturers are cooking up consent for a war with China. They've deceived us again and again; see earlier instances: https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin-powell-knew-about-iraq-fifteen-years-ago-and-what-he-told-the-un/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin... and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony How long will you let yourself and your zeal to see nazis everywhere, to be used to cause actual atrocities? So I ask you again: do you denounce the US war on terror? Do you denounce the verifiable concentration camps at the US border? Are you really arguing in good faith?
- DanBC 6y ago
  > No, I don't support literal concentration camps You do, you've been doing it all through this thread.

DanBC 6y ago

> But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor camps. You're wrong, there are, and this is well established. > Some people go to prison for being extremists. Some people go to mandatory reeducation for being extremists Let's look at this extremism. Here's what China says is extremist: “His wife wore veils.” “He has one more child than allowed by the family planning policy.” “He prayed after each meal.” https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideological-viruses/chinas-campaign-repression-against-xinjiangs https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/09/09/eradicating-ideologica...

FooBarWidget 6y ago
> You're wrong, there are, and this is well established. You're wrong, you conveniently refuse to acknowledge the UN visit which said otherwise, and the muslim countries who testified otherwise. You conveniently ignore addressing the many other sources I cite that indicate otherwise. You are closing your eyes and supporting a false atrocity. > Here's what China says is extremist: I literally said that cases of wrong conviction exist and that I condemn wrong convictions. I literally said that I don't agree with their way of using too broad strokes. In your zeal to see nazis everywhere, you completely ignore everything I said that indicates otherwise. While spending so much time accusing me, you still refuse to condemn the US war on terror and literal concentration camps at the US border. Now why's that?