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I suggest you look up the definition of a concentration camp. Slaughter need not be part of the intention. Nor was it a claim I made. Nor does it make it any l

I suggest you look up the definition of a concentration camp. Slaughter need not be part of the intention. Nor was it a claim I made. Nor does it make it any less heinous.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
There is no need to be pedantic about technical or legal definitions. We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse. But I'm arguing they're not killing/enslaving Uyghurs en masse. I base this on my own research and sources. If you go by the more flexible definition of 'large number of people in a small room' regardless of what actually happens to them: I can't independently verify how large rooms are but I agree that people should be treated as humanely as possible. But in all of this, you've completely neglected the fact that China has reeducation camps (real reeducation camps, not "reeducation camps" in quotes) is because of terrorism influences from Afghanistan. If you watch the video I provided, there's a testimony that says that the US were in Afghanistan in order to make use of Uyghur extremists to destabilize China. What is China supposed to do, do nothing and let people continue to walk around with bombs and machetes? China isn't doing all this just for fun, terrorism is a real problem that has no good solution without collateral damage.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse. There's a really important point here about holocaust denial. We need to make sure that people understand some of the camps were extermination camps, and that some of the camps were work camps. This is because anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists will point to the work camps and say "See? No evidence of people being killed in this camp. That 6 million number doesn't make any sense." Concentrations camps aren't just about mass murder. They're a human rights violation and we rightly draw attention to this by using the correct terms.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor camps. As I said via my sources, the evidence for forced labor is very dodgy. Ajit Singh: "‘Forced labor’ stories on China brought to you by US gov, NATO, arms industry to drive Cold War PR blitz" https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-industry-cold-war/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nat... Some people go to prison for being extremists. Some people go to mandatory reeducation for being extremists. Some people are wrongly convicted, with the prosecutor not having done its job well, and that's wrong. But you can't compare mandatory forced reeducation (like a super-boarding school for adults), and instances of lazy prosecutors, to concentration camps; that's a totally different level of crime that's not even in the same ballpark. You just conjured up the word "holocaust denial". Not sure whether you are implying I am like a holocaust denier. But don't you think that such a serious accusation, requires serious evidence? So far I haven't seen you addressing any of the actual content that my sources discuss. Again, if you argue whether people should be treated as humanely as possible, then I agree. But you can't brush terrorism and the US involvement in Afghanistan, under a carpet and pretend like they're not relevant and like they're wholly-independent issues. Again: what else is China supposed to do? It's easy to say "choice x is bad" without considering whether there are better choices. Has anybody found a better solution to terrorism? Even France is now talking about things very similar to Chinese reeducation camps. Do you also denounce the US war on terror as an equally, if not bigger human rights violation? Do you believe the US deserves the same treatment as the one you think China should receive? If you do then I'll believe you are arguing in good faith, because selectively enforcing human rights is how it is weaponized nowadays.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jeremysalwen 6y ago
      You can claim that you are not pro-CCCP, but when you reject the clear evidence provided by numerous well respected an neutral news organizations that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being locked up in camps without committing a crime and without a trial, simply because thegrayzone.com calls it U.S. "propaganda", you are being pro-CCCP in your actions, regardless of what you proclaim. You need to understand,the people in German concentration camps were accused of betraying the German state, supporting terrorism, or hurting Germany and its people. The German government did not say "we are taking all the Jews and gassing them", they said they were taking criminals, traitors, and their sympathizers, and sending them to re-education camps where we will use labor to re-educate them. https://training.ehri-project.eu/nazi-concentration-camps https://training.ehri-project.eu/nazi-concentration-camps > During 1933-34 some 100 concentration camps existed throughout Germany, and more than 100,000 detainees went through them. The purpose of the camps was correctional because detainees of "Aryan blood" were to be "re-educated" by means of violence and hard discipline, slave labor and propaganda in order to make them give up earlier ideas and beliefs and merge into the conformist “Volksgemeinschaft” or "people's community," which the Nazis proclaimed. It was not until later that the extermination was really ramped up, and it was not until after the war that the full scope of the genocide was revealed. And as another commenter pointed out, there actually were multiple different types of camps, some which were labor camps (such as auschwitz), and some which were extermination camps (such as sobibor). Now, you claim to be arguing that the re-education camps are not concentration camps, but the plain words of your argument make it clear that you agree that the re-education camps indeed fit the definition of a concentration camp. Instead, you seem to mainly be arguing that concentration camps are not necessarily so bad, since they don't involve literally mass murdering Muslims, and that they are actually necessary (??), so you prefer not to call them concentration camps since it has bad associations. But understand that yes, it is entirely appropriate to compare the Chinese concentration camps to the Nazi ones, because just on the basis of the description you gave of the Chinese concentration camps, they match the description of the camps as understood by the German public at the time, and some prisoners actually were treated in that way.

I suggest you look up the definition of a concentration camp. Slaughter need not be part of the intention. Nor was it a claim I made. Nor does it make it any less heinous.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

There is no need to be pedantic about technical or legal definitions. We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse. But I'm arguing they're not killing/enslaving Uyghurs en masse. I base this on my own research and sources. If you go by the more flexible definition of 'large number of people in a small room' regardless of what actually happens to them: I can't independently verify how large rooms are but I agree that people should be treated as humanely as possible. But in all of this, you've completely neglected the fact that China has reeducation camps (real reeducation camps, not "reeducation camps" in quotes) is because of terrorism influences from Afghanistan. If you watch the video I provided, there's a testimony that says that the US were in Afghanistan in order to make use of Uyghur extremists to destabilize China. What is China supposed to do, do nothing and let people continue to walk around with bombs and machetes? China isn't doing all this just for fun, terrorism is a real problem that has no good solution without collateral damage.

DanBC 6y ago
> We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse. There's a really important point here about holocaust denial. We need to make sure that people understand some of the camps were extermination camps, and that some of the camps were work camps. This is because anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists will point to the work camps and say "See? No evidence of people being killed in this camp. That 6 million number doesn't make any sense." Concentrations camps aren't just about mass murder. They're a human rights violation and we rightly draw attention to this by using the correct terms.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor camps. As I said via my sources, the evidence for forced labor is very dodgy. Ajit Singh: "‘Forced labor’ stories on China brought to you by US gov, NATO, arms industry to drive Cold War PR blitz" https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-industry-cold-war/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nat... Some people go to prison for being extremists. Some people go to mandatory reeducation for being extremists. Some people are wrongly convicted, with the prosecutor not having done its job well, and that's wrong. But you can't compare mandatory forced reeducation (like a super-boarding school for adults), and instances of lazy prosecutors, to concentration camps; that's a totally different level of crime that's not even in the same ballpark. You just conjured up the word "holocaust denial". Not sure whether you are implying I am like a holocaust denier. But don't you think that such a serious accusation, requires serious evidence? So far I haven't seen you addressing any of the actual content that my sources discuss. Again, if you argue whether people should be treated as humanely as possible, then I agree. But you can't brush terrorism and the US involvement in Afghanistan, under a carpet and pretend like they're not relevant and like they're wholly-independent issues. Again: what else is China supposed to do? It's easy to say "choice x is bad" without considering whether there are better choices. Has anybody found a better solution to terrorism? Even France is now talking about things very similar to Chinese reeducation camps. Do you also denounce the US war on terror as an equally, if not bigger human rights violation? Do you believe the US deserves the same treatment as the one you think China should receive? If you do then I'll believe you are arguing in good faith, because selectively enforcing human rights is how it is weaponized nowadays.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - jeremysalwen 6y ago
    You can claim that you are not pro-CCCP, but when you reject the clear evidence provided by numerous well respected an neutral news organizations that hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being locked up in camps without committing a crime and without a trial, simply because thegrayzone.com calls it U.S. "propaganda", you are being pro-CCCP in your actions, regardless of what you proclaim. You need to understand,the people in German concentration camps were accused of betraying the German state, supporting terrorism, or hurting Germany and its people. The German government did not say "we are taking all the Jews and gassing them", they said they were taking criminals, traitors, and their sympathizers, and sending them to re-education camps where we will use labor to re-educate them. https://training.ehri-project.eu/nazi-concentration-camps https://training.ehri-project.eu/nazi-concentration-camps > During 1933-34 some 100 concentration camps existed throughout Germany, and more than 100,000 detainees went through them. The purpose of the camps was correctional because detainees of "Aryan blood" were to be "re-educated" by means of violence and hard discipline, slave labor and propaganda in order to make them give up earlier ideas and beliefs and merge into the conformist “Volksgemeinschaft” or "people's community," which the Nazis proclaimed. It was not until later that the extermination was really ramped up, and it was not until after the war that the full scope of the genocide was revealed. And as another commenter pointed out, there actually were multiple different types of camps, some which were labor camps (such as auschwitz), and some which were extermination camps (such as sobibor). Now, you claim to be arguing that the re-education camps are not concentration camps, but the plain words of your argument make it clear that you agree that the re-education camps indeed fit the definition of a concentration camp. Instead, you seem to mainly be arguing that concentration camps are not necessarily so bad, since they don't involve literally mass murdering Muslims, and that they are actually necessary (??), so you prefer not to call them concentration camps since it has bad associations. But understand that yes, it is entirely appropriate to compare the Chinese concentration camps to the Nazi ones, because just on the basis of the description you gave of the Chinese concentration camps, they match the description of the camps as understood by the German public at the time, and some prisoners actually were treated in that way.