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I don't deny there are camps. I deny there are concentration camps with the intention to murder people. Big difference. I don't say all camps are good. I don't

I don't deny there are camps. I deny there are concentration camps with the intention to murder people. Big difference. I don't say all camps are good. I don't say nobody is being ill-treated. I'm sure there are incidents. But I deny that it's a mass concentration camp with the intention of murdering 2 million people. Big difference. All the interviews with people who say there are concentration camps, are with Uyghur separatists who have ties with extremist members. The very same people that just a few years ago the US would have labeled as terrorists. Don't you think their answers would be biased? Look at the track record of North Korean dissidents, it's been proven again and again that they have an incentive to lie and that not everything they say can be 100% trusted. What makes you think Uyghur dissidents are different? Heck, for years I've heard stories about Falun Gong being painted as wholly-innocent people who are wrongly prosecuted by the CCP. But now, the New York Times exposed them as spreaders of pro-Trump misinformation. This is another example that shows that people who are in conflict with the CCP, are not automatically trustworthy or honest people. Yes maybe the CCP's treatment on them is wrong, but two things can be true at the same time: CCP could be wrong to treat them like that, AND they could be untrustworthy or have a evil agenda of their own. Even this point is discussed extensively in the video. If you're gonna argue whether China's anti-terrorism efforts use too broad sweeps and is heavy-handed, fine, I don't disagree with that. What I do disagree with, is that it's a genocide/enslavement of 2+ M people or whatever the made-up count is today. You mentioned Taiwan. Whatever I spoke about here on HN about Taiwan is neither in support of the mainland position on Taiwan, nor against it. I was just providing perspective so that people gain a more accurate understanding of the issue. Perhaps you think CCP is "the enemy" and their perspective is automatically invalid. No I don't agree with that. I don't consider myself pro-CCP. You're not gonna find me in agreement with the great firewall policy for example. But that doesn't mean I need to be necessarily against everything they say/do either. No, people who don't oppose CCP at every turn, are not pro-CCP. As I said: I'm pushing back against people who are against China for the wrong reasons.

slumpt_ 6y ago
I suggest you look up the definition of a concentration camp. Slaughter need not be part of the intention. Nor was it a claim I made. Nor does it make it any less heinous.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  There is no need to be pedantic about technical or legal definitions. We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse. But I'm arguing they're not killing/enslaving Uyghurs en masse. I base this on my own research and sources. If you go by the more flexible definition of 'large number of people in a small room' regardless of what actually happens to them: I can't independently verify how large rooms are but I agree that people should be treated as humanely as possible. But in all of this, you've completely neglected the fact that China has reeducation camps (real reeducation camps, not "reeducation camps" in quotes) is because of terrorism influences from Afghanistan. If you watch the video I provided, there's a testimony that says that the US were in Afghanistan in order to make use of Uyghur extremists to destabilize China. What is China supposed to do, do nothing and let people continue to walk around with bombs and machetes? China isn't doing all this just for fun, terrorism is a real problem that has no good solution without collateral damage.
  - DanBC 6y ago
    > We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse. There's a really important point here about holocaust denial. We need to make sure that people understand some of the camps were extermination camps, and that some of the camps were work camps. This is because anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists will point to the work camps and say "See? No evidence of people being killed in this camp. That 6 million number doesn't make any sense." Concentrations camps aren't just about mass murder. They're a human rights violation and we rightly draw attention to this by using the correct terms.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor camps. As I said via my sources, the evidence for forced labor is very dodgy. Ajit Singh: "‘Forced labor’ stories on China brought to you by US gov, NATO, arms industry to drive Cold War PR blitz" https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-industry-cold-war/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nat... Some people go to prison for being extremists. Some people go to mandatory reeducation for being extremists. Some people are wrongly convicted, with the prosecutor not having done its job well, and that's wrong. But you can't compare mandatory forced reeducation (like a super-boarding school for adults), and instances of lazy prosecutors, to concentration camps; that's a totally different level of crime that's not even in the same ballpark. You just conjured up the word "holocaust denial". Not sure whether you are implying I am like a holocaust denier. But don't you think that such a serious accusation, requires serious evidence? So far I haven't seen you addressing any of the actual content that my sources discuss. Again, if you argue whether people should be treated as humanely as possible, then I agree. But you can't brush terrorism and the US involvement in Afghanistan, under a carpet and pretend like they're not relevant and like they're wholly-independent issues. Again: what else is China supposed to do? It's easy to say "choice x is bad" without considering whether there are better choices. Has anybody found a better solution to terrorism? Even France is now talking about things very similar to Chinese reeducation camps. Do you also denounce the US war on terror as an equally, if not bigger human rights violation? Do you believe the US deserves the same treatment as the one you think China should receive? If you do then I'll believe you are arguing in good faith, because selectively enforcing human rights is how it is weaponized nowadays.

slumpt_ 6y ago

I suggest you look up the definition of a concentration camp. Slaughter need not be part of the intention. Nor was it a claim I made. Nor does it make it any less heinous.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
There is no need to be pedantic about technical or legal definitions. We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse. But I'm arguing they're not killing/enslaving Uyghurs en masse. I base this on my own research and sources. If you go by the more flexible definition of 'large number of people in a small room' regardless of what actually happens to them: I can't independently verify how large rooms are but I agree that people should be treated as humanely as possible. But in all of this, you've completely neglected the fact that China has reeducation camps (real reeducation camps, not "reeducation camps" in quotes) is because of terrorism influences from Afghanistan. If you watch the video I provided, there's a testimony that says that the US were in Afghanistan in order to make use of Uyghur extremists to destabilize China. What is China supposed to do, do nothing and let people continue to walk around with bombs and machetes? China isn't doing all this just for fun, terrorism is a real problem that has no good solution without collateral damage.
- DanBC 6y ago
  > We all know that the word 'concentration camp' is used to conjure up images of Nazis killing jews en masse. There's a really important point here about holocaust denial. We need to make sure that people understand some of the camps were extermination camps, and that some of the camps were work camps. This is because anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists will point to the work camps and say "See? No evidence of people being killed in this camp. That 6 million number doesn't make any sense." Concentrations camps aren't just about mass murder. They're a human rights violation and we rightly draw attention to this by using the correct terms.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    But I also reject the notion that there are forced labor camps. As I said via my sources, the evidence for forced labor is very dodgy. Ajit Singh: "‘Forced labor’ stories on China brought to you by US gov, NATO, arms industry to drive Cold War PR blitz" https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-industry-cold-war/ https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nat... Some people go to prison for being extremists. Some people go to mandatory reeducation for being extremists. Some people are wrongly convicted, with the prosecutor not having done its job well, and that's wrong. But you can't compare mandatory forced reeducation (like a super-boarding school for adults), and instances of lazy prosecutors, to concentration camps; that's a totally different level of crime that's not even in the same ballpark. You just conjured up the word "holocaust denial". Not sure whether you are implying I am like a holocaust denier. But don't you think that such a serious accusation, requires serious evidence? So far I haven't seen you addressing any of the actual content that my sources discuss. Again, if you argue whether people should be treated as humanely as possible, then I agree. But you can't brush terrorism and the US involvement in Afghanistan, under a carpet and pretend like they're not relevant and like they're wholly-independent issues. Again: what else is China supposed to do? It's easy to say "choice x is bad" without considering whether there are better choices. Has anybody found a better solution to terrorism? Even France is now talking about things very similar to Chinese reeducation camps. Do you also denounce the US war on terror as an equally, if not bigger human rights violation? Do you believe the US deserves the same treatment as the one you think China should receive? If you do then I'll believe you are arguing in good faith, because selectively enforcing human rights is how it is weaponized nowadays.