6 ms·

WhatsApp risks losing its most loyal customers: Indian uncles and aunties

legerdemain 6y ago
Can someone explain the language phenomenon of referring to a set of people as "uncles and aunties"? I've ubiquitously heard this from expats and students from east Asian countries, and according to this article it seems to be normal usage in India as well. In Russian (and various other languages of Eastern Europe), "uncle" and "aunt" can be used to address a stranger on the street. It comes off as a bit intimate or even childish. It doesn't suggest that the person you're addressing is related to you. If you don't know the name to address someone by, it's less brutish than the alternatives, "hey man" and "hey lady." For example, in the greatest work of Russian literature (The Twelve Chairs), the main character enters the scene pursued by a street urchin who keeps asking him, "Uncle, gimme ten cents!" The urchin earns the immortal reply, perhaps the best-known line in all of modern prose: "Maybe you also want the keys to the apartment where the money is?" But this "aunties" and "uncles" seems to be different. I get a sense that it suggests a circle of doting busybody relatives who dance around you all day to attend to your whims as the baby of the family. Or something like that. What does it mean?
- v64 6y ago
  My reading of the phrase is that it's a colloquial way to refer to groups of large multigenerational extended families.
- nine_zeros 6y ago
  The best way to describe Indian "uncles" and "aunties" is that they are collective nouns for anyone above your own generation who are not your parents or ancestors. They could be related to your parents or friends of your parents or a random person on the street who is older. Kids literally walk into mom-and-pop shops and address the shopkeeper as uncle or aunty.
- netsharc 6y ago
  Don't all older people get the term in Russia, e.g. as a kid, if your father's friend showed up, he'd say "Meet Uncle Vlad"?
  - legerdemain 6y ago
    Yes, this is what I meant when I wrote that it sounds childish. Adults calling other adults "uncle" in Russian sounds either infantile or patronizing. Which is why I assume the Asian usage norms are different.
- mc32 6y ago
  In some East Asian countries a close-ish friend of the mother or father can have their children refer to that friend as uncle so and so or auntie so and so.
- kannanvijayan 6y ago
  It's an honorific and a sign of respect that is be paid between generations, within social circles where respect is due. It is used in particular by children and young people to refer to those of an older generation within the "circle of respect" of their parents. A child will simply not be introduced in a familiar way to someone you don't trust or respect - they will be kept away. If the person is referred to for some reason, they'll be referred to as "that person" or somesuch. When I ask my son to refer to someone as uncle or auntie, it means I'm signalling to him that they have some degree of standing in my life: they are a colleague, or friend, or acquaintance to whom I am asking him to show respect on my behalf. An uncle or auntie is someone who "is known". By bestowing that title, and instructing your child to use it with them, you are granting them status in the eyes of your child, and segregating them explicitly from the general set of all older people. When the term is used by adults, it naturally refers to the _even older_ generation of the elderly. So in this case, where the perspective of the writer is an adult perspective, it refers to the elderly. Lastly, there's a subtle detail that should be made explicit. When it's used "in general" like it is in this title, it does not imply that I, or any reader, considers all of those people uncles and aunties personally. It's implicit in the usage that we are referring to "people who are uncle and aunties for those whom they are the uncles and aunties of". I hope I've done a half-decent job, because the entire set of cultural associations around that word are hard to get across.
  - legerdemain 6y ago
    Yup, this is similar-yet-different to what I'm used to. Thanks for the detailed description!
  - p2t2p 6y ago
    > It is used in particular by children and young people to refer to those of an older generation within the "circle of respect" of their parents. There's such thing in Russian too. My parents had friends and they would come to our apartment every once in a while. We would call them all "uncle $name"
  - msravi 6y ago
    There are a few more nuances to this, probably depending on place and circumstance. 1. It's not necessary, for instance, that the person being referred to by the kid is "known". It's quite common, for example, for kids to address an unknown stranger on the street using "uncle" or "aunty" - it's merely a respectful way of addressing an older person. 2. When used by an adult, it can take on one of two tones: a) The genuinely respectful tone, similar to (1) b) A derogatory way to taunt a slightly older person on account of their age, using outdated practices, etc. The way it's used in THIS article, borders on 2(b) - taunting an older generation for sending good morning messages, etc.
- davchana 6y ago
  In my childhood, all of my parents' siblings, cousins relationship had specific names, like for elder brother of father, brother of mom, sister of parents, their spouses. But anybody outside of that closer circle was Uncle or Aunty. Plus, because enrolling your kids in an english medium was prestigious, & expensive, those schools taught us to use english words, like mummy, papa, daddy, uncle, aunty. It felt like us kids using the english words were making our teachers & parents spending those monies well spent. For me, close relationship people are always assigned as native words. Stranger, in urban setting, are uncle & aunty. Although now kids also call me uncle. Today's kids' usage of native names has shrinked, & more people are now uncle aunty now. Whatsapp forwards, crazy info like tracking chips in currency notes, cow urine the solution to every pain, indian X is the best X in world, overflowing nationalism, are more from uncle & aunties, who are not good with technology, & got introduced to whatsapp directly.
- sunnydayddr 6y ago
  It works similarly to calling someone "mister" and "sir", as in "excuse me, mister" and "excuse me, sir". "Mister" is generally used for someone older and "sir" is usually used for someone around your age. The equivalent mapping in many Asian languages is "mister" = "uncle", and "sir" = "brother". In the case where you are speaking generally, as in writing an article about some people rather than addressing them directly, then it is sort of subjective and not relative to the speaker's/writer's age, but "older" people (~50-60s onwards) are referred to as "uncle/auntie" and "younger" people are referred to as "brother/sister". What is "older" and "younger" here is a very fuzzy line, and it's possible to offend someone by using the wrong term, but this is pretty universal and not exclusive to Asian languages.
- someonenice 6y ago
  So in Indian context respect is shown to the elders by means of different suffix (brother, sister, uncle, grandpa). It could be either brother (bhaiyya, anna, chettan ) or Sister (deedi, akka, chechi .. ) if the person is elder to you but not too older than you. So if you are in 20's , and shopkeeper (who is Raju) is in his 40s, you might call him Raju bhaiyya (or Raju anna in Tamil, Raju chettan in Malayalam). If there is a visible One generation gap, then Uncle or Auntie is used. And if there is a visible two generation gap, then grandpa and grandma is also suffixed to call them (but this is not very common.. and sometimes could be taken as insult) And the elders might call you Son or Daughter (beta, beti ..) in a similar way. And you could be complete strangers.
- notdang 6y ago
  in Russian it will be: дяди и тёти
sudeepj 6y ago
The uncles & aunties referred points to an analog generation (age > 50) in India. For a lot of them WhatsApp is the first social network experience. I am in a group in WA with extended family members and there is continuous chatter on it. As for losing these users, they themselves are oblivious to the privacy concerns and are not that digital literate to explore other options and deploy. It will be someone young in that group who might take a lead to shift to some other messenger.
2Gkashmiri 6y ago
Indian uncles and aunties who trust a WhatsApp forward because "internet" more than what actual scientists are saying. Essentially your Karens in WhatsApp university. They are loyal because for them, WhatsApp is the first time these millions of people got to experience internet. They dont know about stuff. They even remove their liability in spreading stuff by writing: as received I seriously believe if anyone at matrix can build a 1 click bot that sends "good morning" random photos to recipients is going to rock India.
- desi_ninja 6y ago
  on a side note, liked your username. we definitely need faster internet in Kashmir valley so that the systemic cleansing , killing nd Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus by majority muslim population which was put under the rug for appeasement politics can be brought back to attention to ppl in the valley. noble cause.
  - boruto 6y ago
    This is funny. I laughed.
    - 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
      https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/right-wing-exaggerates-number-of-kashmiri-pandits-killed-militants-targeted-muslims-more/271666/ https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/right-wing-exaggerate... this is what is being pumped into their veins. the utter hate because that hate apparently wins them votes in india and these people literally will sell their mothers for power. wink i am not denying that wrongs have been committed. against both pandits and muslims but to say "pandit genocide" and "revenge for war crimes against pandits means to kill and maim remaining kashmiris because revenge" apparently there are documented 100k killings by indian forces. >The graves carry more than 100,000 of Kashmiris killed by state forces since 1989 http://kashmirwatch.com/kashmir-an-exotic-wonderland-under-brutal-occupation/ http://kashmirwatch.com/kashmir-an-exotic-wonderland-under-b... This means at the very least 100K homes who lost their economic, social standing because the breadwinner is not alive. and then the talk about 219 deaths as that is the entire issue and solving that would bring peace and harmony under indian oppression. we have this phenomeon called "half widows" in kashmir courtesy india government. https://kashmirobserver.net/2020/07/15/hoping-against-hope-half-widows-of-kashmir-in-lockdown/ https://kashmirobserver.net/2020/07/15/hoping-against-hope-h... and the disappeared https://apdpkashmir.com/ https://apdpkashmir.com/
akshaybhalotia 6y ago
What is also interesting in this case is the Indian government's stance on this rollout. They have been quite close to FB and Zuck (he's had several meetings with the PM). The propaganda machine in the country relies heavily on WhatsApp and FB to spread (dis/mis)information and polarizing content. Majority of the country's population which is above poverty line is on one or both the platforms. The older generation amongst them, and many many younger gens too, tend to be more gullible and more conservative minded, which makes this self propagating behemoth utterly indispensable to anyone looking to reach the masses with a message. Very predictably then, the govt does not want to lose out on the reach offered by this platform and is fighting for users' "right to privacy", which is just a farce to keep opinions positive, if you ask me. I say this because, on the other hand, they have claimed in the Supreme Court that privacy is not a fundamental right [1] and the country capital's High Court has told certain petitioners against WhatsApp that they can stop using the app if they don't like [2]. [1]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-fundamental-right-to-privacy-to-citizens-Centre-tells-SC/articleshow/48171323.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-fundamental-rig... [2]: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/dont-use-whatsapp-if-you-dont-like-it-delhi-hc/article33599671.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/dont-use-whatsapp-if-...

Can someone explain the language phenomenon of referring to a set of people as "uncles and aunties"? I've ubiquitously heard this from expats and students from east Asian countries, and according to this article it seems to be normal usage in India as well. In Russian (and various other languages of Eastern Europe), "uncle" and "aunt" can be used to address a stranger on the street. It comes off as a bit intimate or even childish. It doesn't suggest that the person you're addressing is related to you. If you don't know the name to address someone by, it's less brutish than the alternatives, "hey man" and "hey lady." For example, in the greatest work of Russian literature (The Twelve Chairs), the main character enters the scene pursued by a street urchin who keeps asking him, "Uncle, gimme ten cents!" The urchin earns the immortal reply, perhaps the best-known line in all of modern prose: "Maybe you also want the keys to the apartment where the money is?" But this "aunties" and "uncles" seems to be different. I get a sense that it suggests a circle of doting busybody relatives who dance around you all day to attend to your whims as the baby of the family. Or something like that. What does it mean?

v64 6y ago
My reading of the phrase is that it's a colloquial way to refer to groups of large multigenerational extended families.
nine_zeros 6y ago
The best way to describe Indian "uncles" and "aunties" is that they are collective nouns for anyone above your own generation who are not your parents or ancestors. They could be related to your parents or friends of your parents or a random person on the street who is older. Kids literally walk into mom-and-pop shops and address the shopkeeper as uncle or aunty.
netsharc 6y ago
Don't all older people get the term in Russia, e.g. as a kid, if your father's friend showed up, he'd say "Meet Uncle Vlad"?
- legerdemain 6y ago
  Yes, this is what I meant when I wrote that it sounds childish. Adults calling other adults "uncle" in Russian sounds either infantile or patronizing. Which is why I assume the Asian usage norms are different.
mc32 6y ago
In some East Asian countries a close-ish friend of the mother or father can have their children refer to that friend as uncle so and so or auntie so and so.
kannanvijayan 6y ago
It's an honorific and a sign of respect that is be paid between generations, within social circles where respect is due. It is used in particular by children and young people to refer to those of an older generation within the "circle of respect" of their parents. A child will simply not be introduced in a familiar way to someone you don't trust or respect - they will be kept away. If the person is referred to for some reason, they'll be referred to as "that person" or somesuch. When I ask my son to refer to someone as uncle or auntie, it means I'm signalling to him that they have some degree of standing in my life: they are a colleague, or friend, or acquaintance to whom I am asking him to show respect on my behalf. An uncle or auntie is someone who "is known". By bestowing that title, and instructing your child to use it with them, you are granting them status in the eyes of your child, and segregating them explicitly from the general set of all older people. When the term is used by adults, it naturally refers to the _even older_ generation of the elderly. So in this case, where the perspective of the writer is an adult perspective, it refers to the elderly. Lastly, there's a subtle detail that should be made explicit. When it's used "in general" like it is in this title, it does not imply that I, or any reader, considers all of those people uncles and aunties personally. It's implicit in the usage that we are referring to "people who are uncle and aunties for those whom they are the uncles and aunties of". I hope I've done a half-decent job, because the entire set of cultural associations around that word are hard to get across.
- legerdemain 6y ago
  Yup, this is similar-yet-different to what I'm used to. Thanks for the detailed description!
- p2t2p 6y ago
  > It is used in particular by children and young people to refer to those of an older generation within the "circle of respect" of their parents. There's such thing in Russian too. My parents had friends and they would come to our apartment every once in a while. We would call them all "uncle $name"
- msravi 6y ago
  There are a few more nuances to this, probably depending on place and circumstance. 1. It's not necessary, for instance, that the person being referred to by the kid is "known". It's quite common, for example, for kids to address an unknown stranger on the street using "uncle" or "aunty" - it's merely a respectful way of addressing an older person. 2. When used by an adult, it can take on one of two tones: a) The genuinely respectful tone, similar to (1) b) A derogatory way to taunt a slightly older person on account of their age, using outdated practices, etc. The way it's used in THIS article, borders on 2(b) - taunting an older generation for sending good morning messages, etc.
davchana 6y ago
In my childhood, all of my parents' siblings, cousins relationship had specific names, like for elder brother of father, brother of mom, sister of parents, their spouses. But anybody outside of that closer circle was Uncle or Aunty. Plus, because enrolling your kids in an english medium was prestigious, & expensive, those schools taught us to use english words, like mummy, papa, daddy, uncle, aunty. It felt like us kids using the english words were making our teachers & parents spending those monies well spent. For me, close relationship people are always assigned as native words. Stranger, in urban setting, are uncle & aunty. Although now kids also call me uncle. Today's kids' usage of native names has shrinked, & more people are now uncle aunty now. Whatsapp forwards, crazy info like tracking chips in currency notes, cow urine the solution to every pain, indian X is the best X in world, overflowing nationalism, are more from uncle & aunties, who are not good with technology, & got introduced to whatsapp directly.
sunnydayddr 6y ago
It works similarly to calling someone "mister" and "sir", as in "excuse me, mister" and "excuse me, sir". "Mister" is generally used for someone older and "sir" is usually used for someone around your age. The equivalent mapping in many Asian languages is "mister" = "uncle", and "sir" = "brother". In the case where you are speaking generally, as in writing an article about some people rather than addressing them directly, then it is sort of subjective and not relative to the speaker's/writer's age, but "older" people (~50-60s onwards) are referred to as "uncle/auntie" and "younger" people are referred to as "brother/sister". What is "older" and "younger" here is a very fuzzy line, and it's possible to offend someone by using the wrong term, but this is pretty universal and not exclusive to Asian languages.
someonenice 6y ago
So in Indian context respect is shown to the elders by means of different suffix (brother, sister, uncle, grandpa). It could be either brother (bhaiyya, anna, chettan ) or Sister (deedi, akka, chechi .. ) if the person is elder to you but not too older than you. So if you are in 20's , and shopkeeper (who is Raju) is in his 40s, you might call him Raju bhaiyya (or Raju anna in Tamil, Raju chettan in Malayalam). If there is a visible One generation gap, then Uncle or Auntie is used. And if there is a visible two generation gap, then grandpa and grandma is also suffixed to call them (but this is not very common.. and sometimes could be taken as insult) And the elders might call you Son or Daughter (beta, beti ..) in a similar way. And you could be complete strangers.
notdang 6y ago
in Russian it will be: дяди и тёти

sudeepj 6y ago

The uncles & aunties referred points to an analog generation (age > 50) in India. For a lot of them WhatsApp is the first social network experience. I am in a group in WA with extended family members and there is continuous chatter on it. As for losing these users, they themselves are oblivious to the privacy concerns and are not that digital literate to explore other options and deploy. It will be someone young in that group who might take a lead to shift to some other messenger.

2Gkashmiri 6y ago

Indian uncles and aunties who trust a WhatsApp forward because "internet" more than what actual scientists are saying. Essentially your Karens in WhatsApp university. They are loyal because for them, WhatsApp is the first time these millions of people got to experience internet. They dont know about stuff. They even remove their liability in spreading stuff by writing: as received I seriously believe if anyone at matrix can build a 1 click bot that sends "good morning" random photos to recipients is going to rock India.

desi_ninja 6y ago
on a side note, liked your username. we definitely need faster internet in Kashmir valley so that the systemic cleansing , killing nd Exodus of Kashmiri Hindus by majority muslim population which was put under the rug for appeasement politics can be brought back to attention to ppl in the valley. noble cause.
- boruto 6y ago
  This is funny. I laughed.
  - 2Gkashmiri 6y ago
    https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/right-wing-exaggerates-number-of-kashmiri-pandits-killed-militants-targeted-muslims-more/271666/ https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/right-wing-exaggerate... this is what is being pumped into their veins. the utter hate because that hate apparently wins them votes in india and these people literally will sell their mothers for power. wink i am not denying that wrongs have been committed. against both pandits and muslims but to say "pandit genocide" and "revenge for war crimes against pandits means to kill and maim remaining kashmiris because revenge" apparently there are documented 100k killings by indian forces. >The graves carry more than 100,000 of Kashmiris killed by state forces since 1989 http://kashmirwatch.com/kashmir-an-exotic-wonderland-under-brutal-occupation/ http://kashmirwatch.com/kashmir-an-exotic-wonderland-under-b... This means at the very least 100K homes who lost their economic, social standing because the breadwinner is not alive. and then the talk about 219 deaths as that is the entire issue and solving that would bring peace and harmony under indian oppression. we have this phenomeon called "half widows" in kashmir courtesy india government. https://kashmirobserver.net/2020/07/15/hoping-against-hope-half-widows-of-kashmir-in-lockdown/ https://kashmirobserver.net/2020/07/15/hoping-against-hope-h... and the disappeared https://apdpkashmir.com/ https://apdpkashmir.com/

akshaybhalotia 6y ago

What is also interesting in this case is the Indian government's stance on this rollout. They have been quite close to FB and Zuck (he's had several meetings with the PM). The propaganda machine in the country relies heavily on WhatsApp and FB to spread (dis/mis)information and polarizing content. Majority of the country's population which is above poverty line is on one or both the platforms. The older generation amongst them, and many many younger gens too, tend to be more gullible and more conservative minded, which makes this self propagating behemoth utterly indispensable to anyone looking to reach the masses with a message. Very predictably then, the govt does not want to lose out on the reach offered by this platform and is fighting for users' "right to privacy", which is just a farce to keep opinions positive, if you ask me. I say this because, on the other hand, they have claimed in the Supreme Court that privacy is not a fundamental right [1] and the country capital's High Court has told certain petitioners against WhatsApp that they can stop using the app if they don't like [2]. [1]: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-fundamental-right-to-privacy-to-citizens-Centre-tells-SC/articleshow/48171323.cms https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-fundamental-rig... [2]: https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/dont-use-whatsapp-if-you-dont-like-it-delhi-hc/article33599671.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/dont-use-whatsapp-if-...