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or work on a project. Those look like perfectly valid employment from a resume perspective. I have a hard time believing that a 'project' would look anything l

or work on a project. Those look like perfectly valid employment from a resume perspective. I have a hard time believing that a 'project' would look anything like employment, and I think your ruse would fall apart under interview scrutiny. Mind you, the best thing you can do when you're cut is to start a business. B.S. is better than a blank stare, but not by much.

thematt 15y ago
I wasn't intending for it to be a ruse. Rather if someone had enough money to float for a year and chose to dedicate their time to an open source project, that would be some great experience.
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  You stated that a project would look like perfectly valid employment experience. IMO that's a ruse. I'm not saying that people shouldn't get involved in projects, just that they shouldn't attempt to make a project look like employment if it isn't.
  - skidooer 15y ago
    > just that they shouldn't attempt to make a project look like employment if it isn't. What is the difference? I am having a little trouble drawing the distinction. - If a self-funded project is not employment, does it become employment when someone else funds it? - If you self fund a project and you are able to sell the result of your project, does that make the work leading up to the sale employment? What if you are never able to make a sale? - Do you have to be just another cog in the wheel of a big business to be considered employed? - Why is searching for a job not the same as searching for new customers (i.e. sales, a real profession)? As far as I can tell, they are all exactly the same. Where does the line get drawn?
    - georgieporgie 15y ago
      What is the difference? I am having a little trouble drawing the distinction. Employment means you are employed. If you start a company, you are an employee of said company ("self-employed" is a misnomer if you have a corporation). "A project," implies that there is not a company, otherwise you would say that you started a company. "A project," does not constitute employment. You can talk about edge cases of pet projects making sales, but it doesn't change the fact that claiming a project as employment experience is unlikely to get you very far. Again, I am not saying that people should not work on projects. Just don't confuse projects with employment.
      - dasil003 15y ago
        What about when people are employed to work on a project? It's not a semantic game, contractors are hired this way all the time. Programming skills like most crafts can be applied equally to paid and unpaid work. When you get hired for a programming job, presumably the main concern is whether you can program, which has nothing to do with whether or not you were previously employed to do it (that has more to do with your cashflow situation).
        georgieporgie 15y ago
        What about when people are employed to work on a project? Then they are employed. Working on a project without an employer is not employment. Working on contract for an employer is generally referred to as "self-employment" although, technically, if you're operating under your own business, you're an employee of your own business. I really don't understand why HN is so upset by this distinction. Everyone here is perfectly happy to distinguish between "project" and "start-up" but not, apparently, "project" and "employment".
      - skidooer 15y ago
        On a resume, you would state that you worked under "Your Name", and you can elaborate by describing "A project" to stick with generally accepted formatting rules, but in day to day dialog I have to disagree with your assertions. A project is exactly how I describe what I am working on, whether I am being paid by someone else or if I am paying myself – someone is always paying for your time, even if that someone is you. I'm sure even you would agree that my day job projects are employment. I believe my question still remains. If not all projects are employment, when does working on a project become employment? What criteria need to be met?
tibbon 15y ago
http://webecologyproject.org http://webecologyproject.org Started off as just a random project by 8 people, turned into some consulting, open source software releases, published papers, citations, several talks at conferences, press coverage (NYT, MSNBC, Forbes, etc). Now we've reverted it back to a side project. Yet most of us keep it on our resumes and it seems (and I think is) fairly legit.
saraid216 15y ago
When I was unemployed, I spent a chunk of the time writing an open source project. I put it down on my resume as "Hobby project to hone skills in Ruby, Javascript, and HTML5 Canvas" and it ended up being the best demonstration of actual work I could share with my interviewer.
- 20after4 15y ago
  Same, I got my job based largely on the quality of my code which was created for a hobby project. Those who are hiring programmers love to see real work even if it was a hobby project. The quality of your code speaks for it's self.

thematt 15y ago

I wasn't intending for it to be a ruse. Rather if someone had enough money to float for a year and chose to dedicate their time to an open source project, that would be some great experience.

georgieporgie 15y ago
You stated that a project would look like perfectly valid employment experience. IMO that's a ruse. I'm not saying that people shouldn't get involved in projects, just that they shouldn't attempt to make a project look like employment if it isn't.
- skidooer 15y ago
  > just that they shouldn't attempt to make a project look like employment if it isn't. What is the difference? I am having a little trouble drawing the distinction. - If a self-funded project is not employment, does it become employment when someone else funds it? - If you self fund a project and you are able to sell the result of your project, does that make the work leading up to the sale employment? What if you are never able to make a sale? - Do you have to be just another cog in the wheel of a big business to be considered employed? - Why is searching for a job not the same as searching for new customers (i.e. sales, a real profession)? As far as I can tell, they are all exactly the same. Where does the line get drawn?
  - georgieporgie 15y ago
    What is the difference? I am having a little trouble drawing the distinction. Employment means you are employed. If you start a company, you are an employee of said company ("self-employed" is a misnomer if you have a corporation). "A project," implies that there is not a company, otherwise you would say that you started a company. "A project," does not constitute employment. You can talk about edge cases of pet projects making sales, but it doesn't change the fact that claiming a project as employment experience is unlikely to get you very far. Again, I am not saying that people should not work on projects. Just don't confuse projects with employment.
    - dasil003 15y ago
      What about when people are employed to work on a project? It's not a semantic game, contractors are hired this way all the time. Programming skills like most crafts can be applied equally to paid and unpaid work. When you get hired for a programming job, presumably the main concern is whether you can program, which has nothing to do with whether or not you were previously employed to do it (that has more to do with your cashflow situation).
      - georgieporgie 15y ago
        What about when people are employed to work on a project? Then they are employed. Working on a project without an employer is not employment. Working on contract for an employer is generally referred to as "self-employment" although, technically, if you're operating under your own business, you're an employee of your own business. I really don't understand why HN is so upset by this distinction. Everyone here is perfectly happy to distinguish between "project" and "start-up" but not, apparently, "project" and "employment".
    - skidooer 15y ago
      On a resume, you would state that you worked under "Your Name", and you can elaborate by describing "A project" to stick with generally accepted formatting rules, but in day to day dialog I have to disagree with your assertions. A project is exactly how I describe what I am working on, whether I am being paid by someone else or if I am paying myself – someone is always paying for your time, even if that someone is you. I'm sure even you would agree that my day job projects are employment. I believe my question still remains. If not all projects are employment, when does working on a project become employment? What criteria need to be met?

tibbon 15y ago

http://webecologyproject.org http://webecologyproject.org Started off as just a random project by 8 people, turned into some consulting, open source software releases, published papers, citations, several talks at conferences, press coverage (NYT, MSNBC, Forbes, etc). Now we've reverted it back to a side project. Yet most of us keep it on our resumes and it seems (and I think is) fairly legit.

saraid216 15y ago

When I was unemployed, I spent a chunk of the time writing an open source project. I put it down on my resume as "Hobby project to hone skills in Ruby, Javascript, and HTML5 Canvas" and it ended up being the best demonstration of actual work I could share with my interviewer.

20after4 15y ago
Same, I got my job based largely on the quality of my code which was created for a hobby project. Those who are hiring programmers love to see real work even if it was a hobby project. The quality of your code speaks for it's self.