5 ms·

Speaking of aggression, people often suspect the famous hormone testosterone as one of the prime causes. But Robert Sapolsky's (one of his papers is cited in O

Speaking of aggression, people often suspect the famous hormone testosterone as one of the prime causes. But Robert Sapolsky's (one of his papers is cited in OP's analysis) book, Behave shows something different: "While testosterone is inextricably tied to aggression, it is far less relevant to aggression than usually assumed." Instead of asking "What do individual levels of testosterone have to do with aggression?", he posits a better question: "Does difference in testosterone levels among individuals predict who will be aggressive?" The answer: Among birds, fish, mammals, and especially other primates, "generally no". As for humans, it has been extensively studied, and the jury is in (Sapolsky is quoting a British endocrinologist, John Archer): "There is a weak and inconsistent association between testosterone levels and aggression in [human adults], and ... administration of testosterone to volunteers typically does not increase their aggression." ——— The executive summary being testosterone's effects are hugely context dependent—this in turn means "rather than causing X, testosterone amplifies the power of something else to cause X."

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
> Speaking of aggression, people often suspect the famous hormone testosterone as one of the prime causes. But Robert Sapolsky's (one of his papers is cited in OP's analysis) book, Behave shows something different: "While testosterone is inextricably tied to aggression, it is far less relevant to aggression than usually assumed." It's a very common thing, even among serious scientists, to immediately go searching for gendered factors and treat them as special, whereas often other factors are far larger, and far more interesting. I find it telling that politics and science focuses so much on say, gender and race factors in terms of influence on academic achievements whereas very simple things such as what time of year one is born in is actually a more telling factor. http://www.educationalneuroscience.org.uk/resources/neuromyth-or-neurofact/children-do-better-in-school-if-they-were-born-in-the-autumn/ http://www.educationalneuroscience.org.uk/resources/neuromyt...
- pjc50 6y ago
  > gender and race factors in terms of influence on academic achievements The focus of the politics on these factors is because, within living memory, they were grounds for exclusion from academia entirely. There is therefore an effort to make sure the exclusion is not being carried on covertly instead of overtly. Bad ideas take a long time to replace.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    > The focus of the politics on these factors is because, within living memory, they were grounds for exclusion from academia entirely. There is therefore an effort to make sure the exclusion is not being carried on covertly instead of overtly. So was poverty, citizenship, family lineage, and many other things they aren't so interested for to demonstrate that they are more significant influences than many other factors. I would simply say that these scientists care a great deal for gender and race in their own social matrices, and simply treat a man differently based on his gender or race, but aren't so interested in doing so based on citizenship, or birth cycle.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
  as I'm getting older I'm making an effort to lift weights (just 20 mins with a deadlift every other day) in addition to cardio (running) and I notice my body really needs this to feel as good as I used to. The running gives me quick highs but the weight lifting does have an affect on my testosterone production and sex drive it seems. I was a little low few years ago (I tested because after reading pseudoscience research I wanted to know) but since building this into my routine my levels are back to normal. N Taleb wrote about it and I was a bit skeptical but then thought why not give it a try it's free and will not hurt (or make some quack rich). > whereas very simple things such as what time of year one is born in is actually a more telling factor interesting. I wonder if this might have to do with school starting in autumn and kids born in autumn might then be more likely to start the year after - instead pushing themselves in for an early start this very year when they're legally able to start school. it would be obvious if kids that are actually a year older then the classmates had more time to be ready for school than their peers. Otherwise it would also be interesting to see this repeated in the Southern hemisphere where autumn is actually spring. Many Japanese I know would laugh at Astrology but are 100% convinced that blood-type affects personality.
  - Blikkentrekker 6y ago
    > interesting. I wonder if this might have to do with school starting in autumn and kids born in autumn might then be more likely to start the year after - instead pushing themselves in for an early start this very year when they're legally able to start school. it would be obvious if kids that are actually a year older then the classmates had more time to be ready for school than their peers. Otherwise it would also be interesting to see this repeated in the Southern hemisphere where autumn is actually spring. That is indeed the typically proffered explanation: they are older than their peers when being taught anything. > Many Japanese I know would laugh at Astrology but are 100% convinced that blood-type affects personality. It's interesting from my frame of reference, that Japanese fictional characters often defy any plausible racial phænotype, but are carefully designed around the stereotypes of their stated blood type.
cbolton 6y ago
> rather than causing X, testosterone amplifies the power of something else to cause X. That still means that testosterone is a cause of X, doesn't it? Not a deterministic cause of course, but in a causal graph there would be a directed path from "testosterone" to X?
- Haunted_Cabbage 6y ago
  Does the exponent of a variable make the variable large or does it describe the characteristics of how it gets large?
  - cbolton 6y ago
    I would say the exponent of a variable makes (contributes to making) the result large.
    - sethammons 6y ago
      What if the base is less than one?
      - cbolton 6y ago
        I think the question "does it make it larger or does it describe how it gets large?" implies that the transformation is increasing.
        Haunted_Cabbage 6y ago
        My intention was to say that the exponent describes the characteristics of a change, not to imply that the effects are only positive.
    - Haunted_Cabbage 6y ago
      Given that a negative exponent makes a result smaller, I'd say that it describes rate at which it'll change.
rossdavidh 6y ago
My first thought on reading the article's four kinds of aggression, is that the difference among them as to whether or not testosterone is associated with might explain some of the differences that different research(ers) finds. If you're studying different categories, or worse yet lumping them all together, you may miss an important affect, or apply one to categories that it doesn't belong in.
afpx 6y ago
If I remember the book correctly, Sapolsky goes further and claims that Testosterone regulates pro-social behavior. But, “pro-social” is culturally dependent. For example, in one culture, it may mean being more nurturing. In another, being more aggressive and violent. But, it’s always about “climbing the ladder”.
- kashyapc 6y ago
  Your recollection is almost close :-). He does mention how testosterone even promotes—a few notches up from "regulate"—prosocial behaviour, but only in the right setting: "In one [study], under circumstances where someone's sense of pride rides on honesty, testosterone decreased men's cheating in a game. [...] Engineer social circumstances right, and boosting testosterone levels during a challenge would make people compete like crazy to do the most acts of random kindness. In our world riddled with male violence, the problem isn't that testosterone can increase levels of aggression. The problem is the frequency with which we reward aggression." Behave piqued my interest enough to make me pick up a robust neuroscience textbook. (For those curious, I went with the fourth edition of this one, by Bear et al—https://openlibrary.org/books/OL27999902M/Neuroscience https://openlibrary.org/books/OL27999902M/Neuroscience. I strongly recommend it; it's written with excellent pedagogic skill.)

Blikkentrekker 6y ago

> Speaking of aggression, people often suspect the famous hormone testosterone as one of the prime causes. But Robert Sapolsky's (one of his papers is cited in OP's analysis) book, Behave shows something different: "While testosterone is inextricably tied to aggression, it is far less relevant to aggression than usually assumed." It's a very common thing, even among serious scientists, to immediately go searching for gendered factors and treat them as special, whereas often other factors are far larger, and far more interesting. I find it telling that politics and science focuses so much on say, gender and race factors in terms of influence on academic achievements whereas very simple things such as what time of year one is born in is actually a more telling factor. http://www.educationalneuroscience.org.uk/resources/neuromyth-or-neurofact/children-do-better-in-school-if-they-were-born-in-the-autumn/ http://www.educationalneuroscience.org.uk/resources/neuromyt...

pjc50 6y ago
> gender and race factors in terms of influence on academic achievements The focus of the politics on these factors is because, within living memory, they were grounds for exclusion from academia entirely. There is therefore an effort to make sure the exclusion is not being carried on covertly instead of overtly. Bad ideas take a long time to replace.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  > The focus of the politics on these factors is because, within living memory, they were grounds for exclusion from academia entirely. There is therefore an effort to make sure the exclusion is not being carried on covertly instead of overtly. So was poverty, citizenship, family lineage, and many other things they aren't so interested for to demonstrate that they are more significant influences than many other factors. I would simply say that these scientists care a great deal for gender and race in their own social matrices, and simply treat a man differently based on his gender or race, but aren't so interested in doing so based on citizenship, or birth cycle.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
as I'm getting older I'm making an effort to lift weights (just 20 mins with a deadlift every other day) in addition to cardio (running) and I notice my body really needs this to feel as good as I used to. The running gives me quick highs but the weight lifting does have an affect on my testosterone production and sex drive it seems. I was a little low few years ago (I tested because after reading pseudoscience research I wanted to know) but since building this into my routine my levels are back to normal. N Taleb wrote about it and I was a bit skeptical but then thought why not give it a try it's free and will not hurt (or make some quack rich). > whereas very simple things such as what time of year one is born in is actually a more telling factor interesting. I wonder if this might have to do with school starting in autumn and kids born in autumn might then be more likely to start the year after - instead pushing themselves in for an early start this very year when they're legally able to start school. it would be obvious if kids that are actually a year older then the classmates had more time to be ready for school than their peers. Otherwise it would also be interesting to see this repeated in the Southern hemisphere where autumn is actually spring. Many Japanese I know would laugh at Astrology but are 100% convinced that blood-type affects personality.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  > interesting. I wonder if this might have to do with school starting in autumn and kids born in autumn might then be more likely to start the year after - instead pushing themselves in for an early start this very year when they're legally able to start school. it would be obvious if kids that are actually a year older then the classmates had more time to be ready for school than their peers. Otherwise it would also be interesting to see this repeated in the Southern hemisphere where autumn is actually spring. That is indeed the typically proffered explanation: they are older than their peers when being taught anything. > Many Japanese I know would laugh at Astrology but are 100% convinced that blood-type affects personality. It's interesting from my frame of reference, that Japanese fictional characters often defy any plausible racial phænotype, but are carefully designed around the stereotypes of their stated blood type.

cbolton 6y ago

> rather than causing X, testosterone amplifies the power of something else to cause X. That still means that testosterone is a cause of X, doesn't it? Not a deterministic cause of course, but in a causal graph there would be a directed path from "testosterone" to X?

Haunted_Cabbage 6y ago
Does the exponent of a variable make the variable large or does it describe the characteristics of how it gets large?
- cbolton 6y ago
  I would say the exponent of a variable makes (contributes to making) the result large.
  - sethammons 6y ago
    What if the base is less than one?
    - cbolton 6y ago
      I think the question "does it make it larger or does it describe how it gets large?" implies that the transformation is increasing.
      - Haunted_Cabbage 6y ago
        My intention was to say that the exponent describes the characteristics of a change, not to imply that the effects are only positive.
  - Haunted_Cabbage 6y ago
    Given that a negative exponent makes a result smaller, I'd say that it describes rate at which it'll change.

rossdavidh 6y ago

My first thought on reading the article's four kinds of aggression, is that the difference among them as to whether or not testosterone is associated with might explain some of the differences that different research(ers) finds. If you're studying different categories, or worse yet lumping them all together, you may miss an important affect, or apply one to categories that it doesn't belong in.

afpx 6y ago

If I remember the book correctly, Sapolsky goes further and claims that Testosterone regulates pro-social behavior. But, “pro-social” is culturally dependent. For example, in one culture, it may mean being more nurturing. In another, being more aggressive and violent. But, it’s always about “climbing the ladder”.

kashyapc 6y ago
Your recollection is almost close :-). He does mention how testosterone even promotes—a few notches up from "regulate"—prosocial behaviour, but only in the right setting: "In one [study], under circumstances where someone's sense of pride rides on honesty, testosterone decreased men's cheating in a game. [...] Engineer social circumstances right, and boosting testosterone levels during a challenge would make people compete like crazy to do the most acts of random kindness. In our world riddled with male violence, the problem isn't that testosterone can increase levels of aggression. The problem is the frequency with which we reward aggression." Behave piqued my interest enough to make me pick up a robust neuroscience textbook. (For those curious, I went with the fourth edition of this one, by Bear et al—https://openlibrary.org/books/OL27999902M/Neuroscience https://openlibrary.org/books/OL27999902M/Neuroscience. I strongly recommend it; it's written with excellent pedagogic skill.)