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I find your comments interesting because I've lived in Amsterdam for a significant period of time (as well as Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark), and I've inter

I find your comments interesting because I've lived in Amsterdam for a significant period of time (as well as Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark), and I've intersected with a lot of people who probably have very similar life stories to you! I think the crowd I interact with is probably somewhat different though, because they're mostly crypto/blockchain people. While I have encountered a fair number of expats who moved to China and regularly visit NL/DE/CH, and rave about how good things are in China, I've also heard the opposite from Chinese friends who moved away. The issue is very complex, and I don't disagree that China is full of promise. I really would like China to succeed, and I think that co-operation is necessary to fix a lot of the problems that threaten us on a planetary and social scale (climate change, immigration, economics, etc.). However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position. I'd be interested to hear more from you — I think civil discourse is very important. But I also don't have much tolerance for gaslighting, and sadly many pro-China/CCP actors have gotten very good at that.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
The thing is, I don't even consider myself particularly pro-CCP. But CCP is the only party that actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization. All the other parties only care about destroying CCP, no matter the negative consequences to Chinese society. Also, half of the reasons people use to oppose the CCP, are either false, or based on twisted half-truths. When I see such unwarranted attacks, how can I not help but feel defensive? It's my and my relatives' future that's at stake. I don't need everyone to become CCP fans. I'd already be happy if people can see CCP in a more realistic, nuanced manner, rather than a cartoon villain. > However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position. This reminds me of myself more than 10 years ago. Back then I had been indoctrinated by western media and western views of China for 15 years. China is bad, China is communism, China kills people, Mao killed millions, one child policy bad, etc. When at the airport and police stations I saw government workers with those typical hats on, an alarm bell goes off in my head: OMG communism!!!! But years later, I got married to my Chinese wife. I started having more interactions with Chinese people. I started researching Chinese recent history. I started researching Chinese society. I started talking to westerners actually living in China. And I found out that a lot of the stuff people here say about the CCP are twisted half-truths, either deliberately or based on misunderstandings due to different culture and values. The Chinese police, rather than brutal enforces, and actually very friendly, don't carry guns, and it's very common for people to quarrel with the police without suffering consequences. Try that in some western countries.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  That's an interesting insight — that the CCP is perhaps the best choice of many bad choices (the "lesser evil" as we say in the US). I do understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree (though I do admit I don't know that much about how China really works). Of course, China is a developed economy, and there is a lot of really impressive and legitimate industry in China. The hardware markets of Shenzen, the startups in Shanghai, the generally better-educated (than the US) populous. I want to make it clear that I don't hold a cartoonish "China bad" view, and I definitely don't see Chinese people as bad people — I have a lot of them as friends — nor even every member of the CCP as a bad person. But I think these "attacks" of China aren't that unwarranted. There is something really foul afoot in China, moreso than the US. Perhaps, if the US didn't have such a strong constitution and democratic backing, it would be doing worse things than China. But it isn't, and that's because of the setup of the US government. The things that really bother me about China are: 1. The invasion of Tibet (everyone seems to have forgotten about this) 2. The Uighur Genocide 3. Well-documented organ harvesting of political dissident groups like Falun Gong 4. The draconian social-credit system 5. The Great Firewall 6. Parts of the "Belt and Road" initiative, particularly landgrabs from poor African farmers There is very good evidence for each of these points, and the West doesn't have problems like this. I do see that the US has a lot wrong with it. I also see that Germany and Europe has a lot wrong with it. I also know that media perceptions are often wrong — I'm half German and hold German citizenship, so I know how strange it is to fly between countries and see how distorted media perceptions are on either end. But China in its current incarnation is, to me, dangerous and scary, and also very promising. I hope we can patch up the past, but we can't do that by being blind to it.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Thanks for your perspective. I don't deny that China has many problems. But on the topic of truth, some accusations against China are false. Are you willing to discuss them?
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      Surely! I sent you a message on Keybase.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

The thing is, I don't even consider myself particularly pro-CCP. But CCP is the only party that actually advances the interests of Chinese civilization. All the other parties only care about destroying CCP, no matter the negative consequences to Chinese society. Also, half of the reasons people use to oppose the CCP, are either false, or based on twisted half-truths. When I see such unwarranted attacks, how can I not help but feel defensive? It's my and my relatives' future that's at stake. I don't need everyone to become CCP fans. I'd already be happy if people can see CCP in a more realistic, nuanced manner, rather than a cartoon villain. > However, I have a very strong distaste for the CCP and really would like to see them dismantled. For this reason, I doubt I will ever visit China, simply because I've been very publicly vocal in this position. This reminds me of myself more than 10 years ago. Back then I had been indoctrinated by western media and western views of China for 15 years. China is bad, China is communism, China kills people, Mao killed millions, one child policy bad, etc. When at the airport and police stations I saw government workers with those typical hats on, an alarm bell goes off in my head: OMG communism!!!! But years later, I got married to my Chinese wife. I started having more interactions with Chinese people. I started researching Chinese recent history. I started researching Chinese society. I started talking to westerners actually living in China. And I found out that a lot of the stuff people here say about the CCP are twisted half-truths, either deliberately or based on misunderstandings due to different culture and values. The Chinese police, rather than brutal enforces, and actually very friendly, don't carry guns, and it's very common for people to quarrel with the police without suffering consequences. Try that in some western countries.

sebmellen 6y ago
That's an interesting insight — that the CCP is perhaps the best choice of many bad choices (the "lesser evil" as we say in the US). I do understand your perspective, but I respectfully disagree (though I do admit I don't know that much about how China really works). Of course, China is a developed economy, and there is a lot of really impressive and legitimate industry in China. The hardware markets of Shenzen, the startups in Shanghai, the generally better-educated (than the US) populous. I want to make it clear that I don't hold a cartoonish "China bad" view, and I definitely don't see Chinese people as bad people — I have a lot of them as friends — nor even every member of the CCP as a bad person. But I think these "attacks" of China aren't that unwarranted. There is something really foul afoot in China, moreso than the US. Perhaps, if the US didn't have such a strong constitution and democratic backing, it would be doing worse things than China. But it isn't, and that's because of the setup of the US government. The things that really bother me about China are: 1. The invasion of Tibet (everyone seems to have forgotten about this) 2. The Uighur Genocide 3. Well-documented organ harvesting of political dissident groups like Falun Gong 4. The draconian social-credit system 5. The Great Firewall 6. Parts of the "Belt and Road" initiative, particularly landgrabs from poor African farmers There is very good evidence for each of these points, and the West doesn't have problems like this. I do see that the US has a lot wrong with it. I also see that Germany and Europe has a lot wrong with it. I also know that media perceptions are often wrong — I'm half German and hold German citizenship, so I know how strange it is to fly between countries and see how distorted media perceptions are on either end. But China in its current incarnation is, to me, dangerous and scary, and also very promising. I hope we can patch up the past, but we can't do that by being blind to it.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  Thanks for your perspective. I don't deny that China has many problems. But on the topic of truth, some accusations against China are false. Are you willing to discuss them?
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Surely! I sent you a message on Keybase.