3 ms·

This seems like FUD. Truffle is licensed under the permissive UPL[0]. Even if they decided to make newer versions of it closed-source the opensource versions

This seems like FUD. Truffle is licensed under the permissive UPL[0]. Even if they decided to make newer versions of it closed-source the opensource versions would still be available, and their licenses would continue to hold. This happened with solaris: oracle decided to make new ‘official’ development closed, but the last opensource version continued to be used and developed by the community. 0. https://github.com/oracle/graal/blob/master/truffle/LICENSE.md https://github.com/oracle/graal/blob/master/truffle/LICENSE....

emmanueloga_ 6y ago
"FUD" is a concerted effort to outsell a competitor or something like that... I'm just an individual with real questions about implications of the licenses involved. I bet others have similar questions. Graal licensing seems pretty complicated to me, and if I get it right Truffle only makes sense when used together with Graal. From what I could find in the FAQ [1]: * "GraalVM Community is free to use for any purpose and comes with no strings attached, but also no guarantees or support." * "GraalVM Enterprise includes Improved performance and security over GraalVM Community" In general it seems pretty good, but I think it is a bit painful to have to pay for certain optimizations... again, imagine if projects had to pay to, say, "clang -O3". Also could be painful to get stuck in Graal/Truffle version N if version N+1 switches to different licensing terms. In general commercial compilers are a bit of a drag to work with... I use Saxon from time to time and sometimes I need to check the matrix to see if a feature is available or not [2]. For instance, until version 10.0, higher order functions (!) was a feature one had to pay for, for whatever reason. -- 1: https://www.graalvm.org/faq/#how-is-graalvm-licensed https://www.graalvm.org/faq/#how-is-graalvm-licensed 2: https://www.saxonica.com/products/feature-matrix-10.xml https://www.saxonica.com/products/feature-matrix-10.xml
- kaba0 6y ago
  As far as I know, full, profile-guided optimizations are the only paid features. Also, if Graal is instead used in place of Hotspot as a JIT compiler, there is no need for that so you get the “whole package”.
  - fcurts 6y ago
    Sadly, a significant number of performance/sandboxing/debugging features is only available in EE. Also holds for JIT (at least wrt. performance).

emmanueloga_ 6y ago

"FUD" is a concerted effort to outsell a competitor or something like that... I'm just an individual with real questions about implications of the licenses involved. I bet others have similar questions. Graal licensing seems pretty complicated to me, and if I get it right Truffle only makes sense when used together with Graal. From what I could find in the FAQ [1]: * "GraalVM Community is free to use for any purpose and comes with no strings attached, but also no guarantees or support." * "GraalVM Enterprise includes Improved performance and security over GraalVM Community" In general it seems pretty good, but I think it is a bit painful to have to pay for certain optimizations... again, imagine if projects had to pay to, say, "clang -O3". Also could be painful to get stuck in Graal/Truffle version N if version N+1 switches to different licensing terms. In general commercial compilers are a bit of a drag to work with... I use Saxon from time to time and sometimes I need to check the matrix to see if a feature is available or not [2]. For instance, until version 10.0, higher order functions (!) was a feature one had to pay for, for whatever reason. -- 1: https://www.graalvm.org/faq/#how-is-graalvm-licensed https://www.graalvm.org/faq/#how-is-graalvm-licensed 2: https://www.saxonica.com/products/feature-matrix-10.xml https://www.saxonica.com/products/feature-matrix-10.xml

kaba0 6y ago
As far as I know, full, profile-guided optimizations are the only paid features. Also, if Graal is instead used in place of Hotspot as a JIT compiler, there is no need for that so you get the “whole package”.
- fcurts 6y ago
  Sadly, a significant number of performance/sandboxing/debugging features is only available in EE. Also holds for JIT (at least wrt. performance).