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One of those was flagged, so it's pretty clearly "not-HN". The other says it's a state-run business (which, I mean, lots of people disagreed with that). That's

One of those was flagged, so it's pretty clearly "not-HN". The other says it's a state-run business (which, I mean, lots of people disagreed with that). That's miles away from saying something is a security threat [edit: it's worth saying, for those not clicking the link, he compares it to Saudi Aramco, which is, I mean, I've never heard that IPO described as a security threat either, so there's not really even any implications I can detect]. Nowhere in there is the narrative you're describing.

sebmellen 6y ago
It's gaslighting. The pro-China crowd has gotten very good at this. Look for the downvotes on posts with countervailing narratives.
- dang 6y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html This sort of perception is notoriously unreliable and is pretty much entirely in the eye of the beholder. The majority of comments in this thread, and basically every other HN thread on the topic, are not at all as you describe.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Hey @dang, I appreciate your comment and will take it into account. I certainly appreciate your moderation and how quiet a place HN is in comparison with the rest of the rowdy world & internet. It's certainly a special place and I don't want to disturb that. As you can see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843540, I do try to reach out where the opportunity is available, even with those I might disagree with. -- It seems you think this issue is particularly inflammatory to me (and others) because of "nationalistic interests," but for me it's much more about friendships. I have a group of Falun Gong practicing friends in Amsterdam, my math tutor was Taiwanese and had family who disappeared on the mainland, and I know a lot of people who were lucky enough to get out of China, including a very good family friend. On the other hand, an opthamologist who almost treated me and whose clinic I regularly visit stepped down after being ousted as a member of the Thousand Talents Program (see https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-doctor-resigns-thousand-talents-china/ https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-doctor...). -- With respect, I do think there is a lot of gaslighting in this thread (from my side as well, perhaps). I'll refrain from posting such things in the future.
    - dang 6y ago
      I appreciate that you have deep personal connections to this issue, as do many other commenters, both on your side and the opposite side. What are we to do with that but try harder to respect each other?
      - sebmellen 6y ago
        You're entirely right. In the words of MLK: > Hate cannot drown out hate, only love can do that. Please don't get me wrong — I wasn't trying to excuse my wording; I was just trying to explain that I don't mean to create a flamewar or bitter argument. My comments are a genuine expression of my thinking, and I'm not trying to make HN a place for ideological battle. I suppose these discussions just naturally veer into that sort of back-and-forth. I hope that makes sense.
        dang 6y ago
        Sure, and I appreciate that. I think what makes this problem so hard is that we depart from that spirit without realizing that we've done so. This is why it feels like we're posting out of love and respect while the other party is being rude and is in denial, gaslighting, or worse. Meanwhile the other party feels exactly the same way. Each of us is casting our own shadow on the other. That's unfortunately how human communication works, especially online, and it takes a conscious (and considerable) effort to learn to do otherwise. It's not easy! We're all working on it, including me. Unfortunately, when the topic is divisive and activating, the rapid-fire, low-information nature of internet comments causes threads like this to compound extremely quickly into an all-out war.

sebmellen 6y ago

It's gaslighting. The pro-China crowd has gotten very good at this. Look for the downvotes on posts with countervailing narratives.

dang 6y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines like this. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html This sort of perception is notoriously unreliable and is pretty much entirely in the eye of the beholder. The majority of comments in this thread, and basically every other HN thread on the topic, are not at all as you describe.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Hey @dang, I appreciate your comment and will take it into account. I certainly appreciate your moderation and how quiet a place HN is in comparison with the rest of the rowdy world & internet. It's certainly a special place and I don't want to disturb that. As you can see here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25843540, I do try to reach out where the opportunity is available, even with those I might disagree with. -- It seems you think this issue is particularly inflammatory to me (and others) because of "nationalistic interests," but for me it's much more about friendships. I have a group of Falun Gong practicing friends in Amsterdam, my math tutor was Taiwanese and had family who disappeared on the mainland, and I know a lot of people who were lucky enough to get out of China, including a very good family friend. On the other hand, an opthamologist who almost treated me and whose clinic I regularly visit stepped down after being ousted as a member of the Thousand Talents Program (see https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-doctor-resigns-thousand-talents-china/ https://timesofsandiego.com/education/2019/07/08/ucsd-doctor...). -- With respect, I do think there is a lot of gaslighting in this thread (from my side as well, perhaps). I'll refrain from posting such things in the future.
  - dang 6y ago
    I appreciate that you have deep personal connections to this issue, as do many other commenters, both on your side and the opposite side. What are we to do with that but try harder to respect each other?
    - sebmellen 6y ago
      You're entirely right. In the words of MLK: > Hate cannot drown out hate, only love can do that. Please don't get me wrong — I wasn't trying to excuse my wording; I was just trying to explain that I don't mean to create a flamewar or bitter argument. My comments are a genuine expression of my thinking, and I'm not trying to make HN a place for ideological battle. I suppose these discussions just naturally veer into that sort of back-and-forth. I hope that makes sense.
      - dang 6y ago
        Sure, and I appreciate that. I think what makes this problem so hard is that we depart from that spirit without realizing that we've done so. This is why it feels like we're posting out of love and respect while the other party is being rude and is in denial, gaslighting, or worse. Meanwhile the other party feels exactly the same way. Each of us is casting our own shadow on the other. That's unfortunately how human communication works, especially online, and it takes a conscious (and considerable) effort to learn to do otherwise. It's not easy! We're all working on it, including me. Unfortunately, when the topic is divisive and activating, the rapid-fire, low-information nature of internet comments causes threads like this to compound extremely quickly into an all-out war.