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The number one way to reduce child labor is to empower (economically) poor, rural families. A lot of child labor is coming from families without resources / red

The number one way to reduce child labor is to empower (economically) poor, rural families. A lot of child labor is coming from families without resources / reduced education coming from rural to more urban areas. You are pretty clueless about supply chains. A ton of companies pay lip service to supply chain ethics, but do nothing in reality. To actually drop a significant supply chain supplier is pretty major in this space, even if it takes 3 years to spin up a new supplier with capital build out (necessary at Apple's scale), QC, integration etc. I'm not saying whataboutism. I am saying this story shows that if you care about ethics, Apple is probably one of the few firms out there willing to make these kind of major decisions. Apparel - it's all a lie in terms of the ethics pledges. Kimberly process for diamonds - badly manipulated - so again a lie in large measure. The list goes on. I could go on. There's a reason I bought a mad made diamond for my wife. I am saying that you and these other western whiners seem to have no clue about the rest of the world. And if this is the reason you are going to dump apple - I feel bad for you, and everyone who will be abused to give you the cheap crap you end up buying. Because this story is not a bad story for apple in the global supply chain game. And it's super frustrating to see these endless stories that have become almost a joke.

skt5 6y ago
This reminds me of something I read in college that's similar to this essay: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/151544657.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/151544657.pdf
fakedang 6y ago
First of all there's no need to call us names "Western Whiners", "clueless" and all. Second, I'm not Western either. Third, I'm not an Apple user. With that out of the way, the number one way to empower children is not to send them to factories but to give them an education. Make them part of a system where their basic needs are taken care of (free Healthcare, education, school meals). Your basis of "empower economically" is pointless if their monetary gains come at the cost of social development.
- random5634 6y ago
  This is a very western mindset - if a family is starving, they will put children to work EVEN IF you are demanding they be educated. Even if that's the law. They in some cases sell their children to even worse outcomes. This has been shown to happen over and over again. A ton of drug eradication programs have had this fight as well. Their message, don't cultivate - starve. And they wonder why normal people fight them. But go ahead and keep on parachuting in with your demands on people barely scraping by.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    If a family is starving, it's the responsibility of the state to ensure that they do not starve. If the state forces the families to send their kids to factories, then that's a failure of the state. China being China, there's no surprise there. Nobody is asking for the people themselves to starve, or blaming those forced to work in factories. Every one here is calling out the Chinese government for enabling such an environment where it's either starvation or bust, or Apple for effectively funding that environment. Seems like that's a difference you simply can't grasp, or you disingenuously don't want to. It's not a Western mindset btw, it's the policy that has been working in a number of countries including most recently Bangladesh and Indonesia.
    - random5634 6y ago
      You really are making clear you have NEVER worked in poverty relief issues or traveled internationally. It's kind of horrifying. Do you realize that 20%+ of children are so badly nourished they are stunted? The impacts this will have on their entire life and development? Not everyone country is your well developed western country where the state provides food to everyone. This is kind of scary to see on HN - programmers should really travel more (I'm a dual citizen with pretty extensive travel AND WORK in much much poorer areas). "Apple for effectively funding that [starvation or bust] environment". Heads up. Apple is one of the FEW western companies to actually cut off chinese suppliers for violating supply chain codes ($ lost, not just lipservice). I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of apple funding child exploitation. You are probably buying chinese made goods including those made with essentially forced labor. Do you not understand the situation in these countries? That US and European countries CONTINUE to sign new trade deals despite horrific labor and other abuses? In all likelihood Apple factories, and even the factories of third party suppliers working for them, are probably one the least likely (not most) factories in china to be employing child labor as a result of apples efforts.

skt5 6y ago

This reminds me of something I read in college that's similar to this essay: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/151544657.pdf https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/151544657.pdf

fakedang 6y ago

First of all there's no need to call us names "Western Whiners", "clueless" and all. Second, I'm not Western either. Third, I'm not an Apple user. With that out of the way, the number one way to empower children is not to send them to factories but to give them an education. Make them part of a system where their basic needs are taken care of (free Healthcare, education, school meals). Your basis of "empower economically" is pointless if their monetary gains come at the cost of social development.

random5634 6y ago
This is a very western mindset - if a family is starving, they will put children to work EVEN IF you are demanding they be educated. Even if that's the law. They in some cases sell their children to even worse outcomes. This has been shown to happen over and over again. A ton of drug eradication programs have had this fight as well. Their message, don't cultivate - starve. And they wonder why normal people fight them. But go ahead and keep on parachuting in with your demands on people barely scraping by.
- fakedang 6y ago
  If a family is starving, it's the responsibility of the state to ensure that they do not starve. If the state forces the families to send their kids to factories, then that's a failure of the state. China being China, there's no surprise there. Nobody is asking for the people themselves to starve, or blaming those forced to work in factories. Every one here is calling out the Chinese government for enabling such an environment where it's either starvation or bust, or Apple for effectively funding that environment. Seems like that's a difference you simply can't grasp, or you disingenuously don't want to. It's not a Western mindset btw, it's the policy that has been working in a number of countries including most recently Bangladesh and Indonesia.
  - random5634 6y ago
    You really are making clear you have NEVER worked in poverty relief issues or traveled internationally. It's kind of horrifying. Do you realize that 20%+ of children are so badly nourished they are stunted? The impacts this will have on their entire life and development? Not everyone country is your well developed western country where the state provides food to everyone. This is kind of scary to see on HN - programmers should really travel more (I'm a dual citizen with pretty extensive travel AND WORK in much much poorer areas). "Apple for effectively funding that [starvation or bust] environment". Heads up. Apple is one of the FEW western companies to actually cut off chinese suppliers for violating supply chain codes ($ lost, not just lipservice). I have no idea what you are talking about in terms of apple funding child exploitation. You are probably buying chinese made goods including those made with essentially forced labor. Do you not understand the situation in these countries? That US and European countries CONTINUE to sign new trade deals despite horrific labor and other abuses? In all likelihood Apple factories, and even the factories of third party suppliers working for them, are probably one the least likely (not most) factories in china to be employing child labor as a result of apples efforts.