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Yup, and Antifa and BLM have caused fear in Portland for political reasons as well. They lit the mayor's apartment building on fire, but were not called out as

Yup, and Antifa and BLM have caused fear in Portland for political reasons as well. They lit the mayor's apartment building on fire, but were not called out as terrorists. The media is not even handed here.

King-Aaron 6y ago
Yes, there is credence to the old saying: "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". But I really don't think we need to devolve to whataboutism here. We're talking about the actions of people storming the capitol building, to try and say 'yes well X group of people are also terrorists' is a completely moot point and an intentional deflection.
- sojournerc 6y ago
  This thread started with you saddened at folks downplaying the events at the Capitol. I'm much more concerned with the media being complicit in downplaying what we both agree is domestic terrorism elsewhere. I suppose that's a "what about", but I fear the current structures of power colluding to form narratives more than angry trumpers.
  - King-Aaron 6y ago
    So, there's a few things to unpack here. 1. I don't (personally) agree that the 'black lives matter' protests should be considered as 'terrorism', because fundamentally they began as a protest against the systematic mistreatment of a certain race/demographic of people. While it can be viewed as political, it's not quite the same as 'storming the capital of a country to overturn the result of an election', which is undeniably a political goal. While some BLM rioters eventually did conduct what could be described as terrorist acts, it fundamentally isn't the same thing. 2. You're welcome to disagree on that point, but it's not what's being discussed in this thread. 3. Yes, media overreach is an issue, but it's not the topic of the conversation. 4. I am still sad that people are trying to downplay the issue, and not just because some people don't want to call it terrorism. People saying 'oh in the future it won't even be remembered' etc etc is also problematic as it's downplaying the event itself. Edit: Added point 2
    - hairofadog 6y ago
      Thank you; I really appreciated this comment. I’m feeling much the same way, and it’s been in my mind a lot lately. I think the heart of the issue is a failure to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. People look at each thing in isolation and say, “it’s not that big a deal”, but somehow (especially surprising for folks who frequent HN) fail to see the larger patterns.
    - pstuart 6y ago
      And every single BLM fear-monger here continues to ignore that violence at those protests had outside agitators in the mix: https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-supremacist-trying-to-incite-floyd-rioting/571932272/ https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-...
    - thelastwave 6y ago
      No, BLM began in reaction to a hispanic person shooting a black person who was beating him up, and directly led to unprovoked and extremely violent attacks by blacks on white people, literally saying "This is for Trayvon!" BLM does not really address the underlying problem of conflict but has led to acts of murder and terrorism in the name of racial justice. It is part of the problem, not a solution.
  - akiselev 6y ago
    93% of the BLM protests were peaceful [1] despite protestors numbering in the millions, if not tens of millions - compared to the tens of thousands at the capitol. The most notable violence during the BLM protests was an incident where far right extremists, members of Bugaloo boys group involved in the capitol attack, used the protests as cover to murder cops [2]. To compare the two is disingenuous. [1] https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-violence-in-america-new-data-for-summer-2020/ https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-vi... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/17/boogaloo-steven-carrillo/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/17/boogaloo-st...
    - abduhl 6y ago
      Sorry man, but the most notable violence during the BLM protests was the gangland style execution of two black teens after the "movement" had taken over six city blocks. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/shooting-at-seattles-chop-protest-site-leaves-2-in-critical-condition/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/shooting-at-... https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-reports-new-details-in-shooting-death-of-16-year-old-rico-a-southern-california-kid-who-ran-away-to-chop/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8471219/One-man-dead-wounded-Seattle-CHOP-zone-shooting.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8471219/One-man-dea...
      - Izkata 6y ago
        If we're still talking comparisons, then also setting things on fire all over the capitol (including attempting to burn down multiple buildings): https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/fires-light-up-washington-dc-on-third-night-of-george-floyd-protests https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/fires-light-...
      - vkou 6y ago
        I was noting flashbangs, less-lethal bullets, gas, and batons being used against unarmed people for months, but you are right that those things aren't notable. It is, in fact, the most expected, and normal thing about the entire summer. In fact, half of the point of the protests were to protest against that kind of run-of-the-mill, un-notable, indiscriminate application of violence by police.
- thelastwave 6y ago
  whataboutism is really just hypocritical deflection, meaning, but we're not talking about the other situation. it's important to push back when people try to invoke "whataboutism" which is toxic to the integrity of discourse.
pelliphant 6y ago
BLM is protesting against systematic racism, the trumpers where trying to overturn an election. Why would you even try to group those two things together? How could it possibly be a problem that "the media" doesn't consider those two things equal?
- sojournerc 6y ago
  It doesn't matter. Violence for a political reason is terrorism[1]. I'm pointing out media hypocrisy, that doesn't mean I'm condoning any violence. Violence is wrong in support of BLM, it's wrong in support of Trump. The ends do not justify those means (and in fact are likely to be counterproductive). [1] ter•ror•ism tĕr′ə-rĭz″əm► n. The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.
  - pelliphant 6y ago
    Terrorism is one of those words that are a bit hard to define. If you would use the definition you wrote here, a lot of things would be considered terrorism. There would probably be more terrorists than non-terrorists in the world then.. But anyway, I think we can agree on the "violence is wrong"-part, and the counterproductive part. But saying that if any form of violence occured during a protest, then those protests should be considered equal, is, well, I don't even know what to call it; Dishonest? Now, what I really disagree about is the "I'm pointing out media hypocrisy"-part. I really don't think you are doing that, I think that what you are doing is, complaining that "the media" seems to agree more with me than with you on this issue, and then phrasing it like your point of view is objectively correct.

King-Aaron 6y ago

Yes, there is credence to the old saying: "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". But I really don't think we need to devolve to whataboutism here. We're talking about the actions of people storming the capitol building, to try and say 'yes well X group of people are also terrorists' is a completely moot point and an intentional deflection.

sojournerc 6y ago
This thread started with you saddened at folks downplaying the events at the Capitol. I'm much more concerned with the media being complicit in downplaying what we both agree is domestic terrorism elsewhere. I suppose that's a "what about", but I fear the current structures of power colluding to form narratives more than angry trumpers.
- King-Aaron 6y ago
  So, there's a few things to unpack here. 1. I don't (personally) agree that the 'black lives matter' protests should be considered as 'terrorism', because fundamentally they began as a protest against the systematic mistreatment of a certain race/demographic of people. While it can be viewed as political, it's not quite the same as 'storming the capital of a country to overturn the result of an election', which is undeniably a political goal. While some BLM rioters eventually did conduct what could be described as terrorist acts, it fundamentally isn't the same thing. 2. You're welcome to disagree on that point, but it's not what's being discussed in this thread. 3. Yes, media overreach is an issue, but it's not the topic of the conversation. 4. I am still sad that people are trying to downplay the issue, and not just because some people don't want to call it terrorism. People saying 'oh in the future it won't even be remembered' etc etc is also problematic as it's downplaying the event itself. Edit: Added point 2
  - hairofadog 6y ago
    Thank you; I really appreciated this comment. I’m feeling much the same way, and it’s been in my mind a lot lately. I think the heart of the issue is a failure to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. People look at each thing in isolation and say, “it’s not that big a deal”, but somehow (especially surprising for folks who frequent HN) fail to see the larger patterns.
  - pstuart 6y ago
    And every single BLM fear-monger here continues to ignore that violence at those protests had outside agitators in the mix: https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-supremacist-trying-to-incite-floyd-rioting/571932272/ https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-...
  - thelastwave 6y ago
    No, BLM began in reaction to a hispanic person shooting a black person who was beating him up, and directly led to unprovoked and extremely violent attacks by blacks on white people, literally saying "This is for Trayvon!" BLM does not really address the underlying problem of conflict but has led to acts of murder and terrorism in the name of racial justice. It is part of the problem, not a solution.
- akiselev 6y ago
  93% of the BLM protests were peaceful [1] despite protestors numbering in the millions, if not tens of millions - compared to the tens of thousands at the capitol. The most notable violence during the BLM protests was an incident where far right extremists, members of Bugaloo boys group involved in the capitol attack, used the protests as cover to murder cops [2]. To compare the two is disingenuous. [1] https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-violence-in-america-new-data-for-summer-2020/ https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-vi... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/17/boogaloo-steven-carrillo/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/17/boogaloo-st...
  - abduhl 6y ago
    Sorry man, but the most notable violence during the BLM protests was the gangland style execution of two black teens after the "movement" had taken over six city blocks. https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/shooting-at-seattles-chop-protest-site-leaves-2-in-critical-condition/ https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/shooting-at-... https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-reports-new-details-in-shooting-death-of-16-year-old-rico-a-southern-california-kid-who-ran-away-to-chop/ https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8471219/One-man-dead-wounded-Seattle-CHOP-zone-shooting.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8471219/One-man-dea...
    - Izkata 6y ago
      If we're still talking comparisons, then also setting things on fire all over the capitol (including attempting to burn down multiple buildings): https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/fires-light-up-washington-dc-on-third-night-of-george-floyd-protests https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/may/31/fires-light-...
    - vkou 6y ago
      I was noting flashbangs, less-lethal bullets, gas, and batons being used against unarmed people for months, but you are right that those things aren't notable. It is, in fact, the most expected, and normal thing about the entire summer. In fact, half of the point of the protests were to protest against that kind of run-of-the-mill, un-notable, indiscriminate application of violence by police.
thelastwave 6y ago
whataboutism is really just hypocritical deflection, meaning, but we're not talking about the other situation. it's important to push back when people try to invoke "whataboutism" which is toxic to the integrity of discourse.

pelliphant 6y ago

BLM is protesting against systematic racism, the trumpers where trying to overturn an election. Why would you even try to group those two things together? How could it possibly be a problem that "the media" doesn't consider those two things equal?

sojournerc 6y ago
It doesn't matter. Violence for a political reason is terrorism[1]. I'm pointing out media hypocrisy, that doesn't mean I'm condoning any violence. Violence is wrong in support of BLM, it's wrong in support of Trump. The ends do not justify those means (and in fact are likely to be counterproductive). [1] ter•ror•ism tĕr′ə-rĭz″əm► n. The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.
- pelliphant 6y ago
  Terrorism is one of those words that are a bit hard to define. If you would use the definition you wrote here, a lot of things would be considered terrorism. There would probably be more terrorists than non-terrorists in the world then.. But anyway, I think we can agree on the "violence is wrong"-part, and the counterproductive part. But saying that if any form of violence occured during a protest, then those protests should be considered equal, is, well, I don't even know what to call it; Dishonest? Now, what I really disagree about is the "I'm pointing out media hypocrisy"-part. I really don't think you are doing that, I think that what you are doing is, complaining that "the media" seems to agree more with me than with you on this issue, and then phrasing it like your point of view is objectively correct.