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Also in Victoria. It bothered me how compliant everyone was with the draconian lockdown. While I was happy to go along with the initial response, when the gove

Also in Victoria. It bothered me how compliant everyone was with the draconian lockdown. While I was happy to go along with the initial response, when the government started the 2nd wave through incompetence I outright refused to follow any of their directions. There was no enforcement on the 5km rule or the "ring of steel" btw. Consequently I'm one of the few people in my company not burnt out. So far the only state that seems to know how to competently handle covid without stripping freedoms is NSW. They take the bulk of international flights and manage outbreaks very well. All every other state in Australia seems to know how to do is knee jerk to closing borders and stripping freedom of movement at the first sign of a new case.

NomDePlum 6y ago
Are you able to elaborate on the differences between NSW and other states? Also, when not complying with what was requested you don't appear to consider personal responsibility and just object. Is that a fair interpretation?
- flukus 6y ago
  NSW had effective contact tracing from the beginning and Vic's was lacking. This let them keep going at 5-30ish cases a day without things getting out of control and hope it eventually fizzles out, as it has multiple times. It's somewhat of a double edged sword though, some restrictions are kept for longer, state borders are closed and there is always the threat of a large outbreak. Lockdowns are harsh but can be short and sharp if their early, as we've seen in other states and across the world. It's kind of a moot point now though because the last Christmas outbreak in NSW was controlled with a lockdown of a huge chunk of Sydney along with the contact tracing. Meanwhile the cases that leaked over the border into Victoria were stamped out with effective contact tracing and (probably) our mask mandate. It's very situational, but lockdowns have been used as both a first and last line of defense. In the early stages they help the contact tracing and testing get on top of things and in later stages they're the only thing that can bring numbers down (before vaccines). The main factors that made a difference in Australia are lockdowns, contact tracing, testing, masks and limiting travel, both internally and externally.
barbs 6y ago
NSW are still dealing with an outbreak that started a month ago, whereas Victoria got on top of theirs relatively quickly (2 weeks I think?). There are lots of factors but I think still having masks indoors in public areas and on public transport helped. That said, I probably agree with you that Victoria's lockdown was a bit too harsh. I live in Melbourne and had to sit through it too, and I broke the curfew, 5km radius and 1 hour exercise rules frequently. I do wish that the response was consistent across all states. I also am pretty grateful that we've come out of the whole thing as well as we did.
matt_j 6y ago
You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm not arguing that the lockdown wasn't extremely strict or that the hotel quarantine debacle wasn't negligent on the part of the government (they should have put a much better security infrastructure in place) ... BUT, when the damage is already done, we still have a virus to contain and I think the measures that were taken were appropriate and very effective. Protesting by not wearing a mask, or breaking the distancing rules, isn't doing you or anyone else any good. The science on how not to spread a respiratory virus is grade school level.
- Mediterraneo10 6y ago
  Elected officials instituting restrictions are partly interested in saving lives, partly feeling vulnerable to attacks from the opposition that they are not being heavy-handed enough. Enough citizens wearing a mask badly or breaking distance rules can communicate to politicians that they actually have a mandate to lift restrictions instead of maintaining or strengthening them. I am in a country where over half the population now opposes lockdown and is more concerned about its side-effects. Some are outright breaking the rules to send a message, but most people fear fines, and so the only means they feel they have to communicate to elected officials and candidates for office is observing the restrictions in a half-hearted way. This en masse failure to respect the rules properly is apparently working -- sources in the party in power claim that the party is dreading being trounced at the polls for this lockdown and trying to back away from it.
  - chc 6y ago
    Do the elected officials in your country not have telephones or mailboxes?
    - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
      Not really. Not all countries are like the US, UK or Canada where elected representatives claim to welcome letters and phone calls from their constituents. In much of Eastern Europe politicians are perceived as being quite uninterested in hearing from their constituents, and even going out of their way to avoid contact with them after being elected. The average citizen feels pretty powerless, and people resort to other ways of showing their demands and rewarding candidates that try to meet them.
thomasfromcdnjs 6y ago
In Victoria, also bothered by how compliant everyone was. The lockdown was extremely hard. My vices tripled and I am still trying to reign them back in. I've had a low key depression since June last year and still trying to shake it. As the parent comment said, they were an introvert, there are lots of people who aren't. (me) In my little suburb, it looks like 10 small businesses had to shutdown while all the mega stores were allowed to continue operation. I feel sorry for anyone who had a less than average housemate, stuck in a place with people for that long causes tension regardless if you like the person. I don't see any problem with people who broke the rules. The government told us from the start that we were just flattening the curve but then without telling us extended the lock-downs in some attempt for an elimination strategy. I personally don't think anyone in the world will ever know or feel what happened here in Melbourne so I expect to be down-voted also. ---- Just going to add what our stage 4 lockdown looked like which kinda lasted for 2 months at it's worst. - 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home) - no visitors - 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months) - you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases)) - you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself - you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person) - lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons) - no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc - increase of police powers, fines around $1600 ----- We also locked a bunch of social housing people in their apartments for two weeks. They didn't even have balconies, just small ugly windows. I hope someone eventually gets sued for that decision. -> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/coronavirus-melbourne-public-housing-tower-shutdown-inquiry/12589372 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/coronavirus-melbourne...
- elijaht 6y ago
  I've been doing a large part of what you mention voluntarily for nearly the whole time and I'm curious what you take issue with - 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home) - no visitors - 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months) - you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases)) - you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself - you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person) - no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc These all seem reasonable in a pandemic to me. Considering yalls success, I would say extremely reasonable. What is the alternative? A half assed version of those (my state imposed a weak curfew, bans to arbitrary activity, but nothing really targeted at preventing COVID). I think there is a particular horror in the current US (and elsewhere) experience where it quite literally feels like a lottery of who among your contacts will get it next. Is two months of an admitted harsh lockdown not worth avoiding that? - lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons) - increase of police powers, fines around $1600 That I find more concerning, and agree with you
batiudrami 6y ago
It depends on your priorities. The rules in Sydney, which they have had for a year and will likely have for all of 2021 (no more than 5 visitors, no gatherings >30 people in public) are much more restrictive than any other state in Australia. I much prefer a short and hard lockdown with closed borders to states who refuse to attempt elimination and being able to live a normal life as a result. The Victorian 2nd wave was undeniably a management screw up, and when restrictions were announced I was dubious that it’d even work (thought the cat was out of the bag) but the fact that their modelling forecasts were accurate (to the day!) months out shows they knew what they were doing and for me it seemed worthwhile.
ggm 6y ago
I think you probably came into this with a profound disagreement with the politics of Victoria, and more naturally aligned with NSW. If you actually didn't and would in more normal times vote labor, I'd be interested in that because what you say very strongly speaks to me, of a prior dissent from the Andrews government. You are using libertarian language in a way which implies you are not a statist, and do not believe what Victoria did was legal, let alone justified (btw in case it isn't clear, I categorically disagree on both fronts) I say this as a queenslander, where the overwhelming majority of the state backs what Labor has done, and thinks NSW can go jump, regarding who determines what happens at the borders. I doubt any Westralian, or Tasmanian, or any of the aboriginal communities (who self isolated day #1) would agree with you over lockdown btw.
dorkwood 6y ago
I'm curious what your thoughts are about the USA's response. In California, the majority of people obeyed the stay-at-home orders for the first few months, but then, much like yourself, started ignoring them completely. They announced a 'second lockdown' recently, which everyone kind of laughs about, because no one is actually paying attention to it. We're up to 700 deaths per day now.

NomDePlum 6y ago

Are you able to elaborate on the differences between NSW and other states? Also, when not complying with what was requested you don't appear to consider personal responsibility and just object. Is that a fair interpretation?

flukus 6y ago
NSW had effective contact tracing from the beginning and Vic's was lacking. This let them keep going at 5-30ish cases a day without things getting out of control and hope it eventually fizzles out, as it has multiple times. It's somewhat of a double edged sword though, some restrictions are kept for longer, state borders are closed and there is always the threat of a large outbreak. Lockdowns are harsh but can be short and sharp if their early, as we've seen in other states and across the world. It's kind of a moot point now though because the last Christmas outbreak in NSW was controlled with a lockdown of a huge chunk of Sydney along with the contact tracing. Meanwhile the cases that leaked over the border into Victoria were stamped out with effective contact tracing and (probably) our mask mandate. It's very situational, but lockdowns have been used as both a first and last line of defense. In the early stages they help the contact tracing and testing get on top of things and in later stages they're the only thing that can bring numbers down (before vaccines). The main factors that made a difference in Australia are lockdowns, contact tracing, testing, masks and limiting travel, both internally and externally.

barbs 6y ago

NSW are still dealing with an outbreak that started a month ago, whereas Victoria got on top of theirs relatively quickly (2 weeks I think?). There are lots of factors but I think still having masks indoors in public areas and on public transport helped. That said, I probably agree with you that Victoria's lockdown was a bit too harsh. I live in Melbourne and had to sit through it too, and I broke the curfew, 5km radius and 1 hour exercise rules frequently. I do wish that the response was consistent across all states. I also am pretty grateful that we've come out of the whole thing as well as we did.

matt_j 6y ago

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm not arguing that the lockdown wasn't extremely strict or that the hotel quarantine debacle wasn't negligent on the part of the government (they should have put a much better security infrastructure in place) ... BUT, when the damage is already done, we still have a virus to contain and I think the measures that were taken were appropriate and very effective. Protesting by not wearing a mask, or breaking the distancing rules, isn't doing you or anyone else any good. The science on how not to spread a respiratory virus is grade school level.

Mediterraneo10 6y ago
Elected officials instituting restrictions are partly interested in saving lives, partly feeling vulnerable to attacks from the opposition that they are not being heavy-handed enough. Enough citizens wearing a mask badly or breaking distance rules can communicate to politicians that they actually have a mandate to lift restrictions instead of maintaining or strengthening them. I am in a country where over half the population now opposes lockdown and is more concerned about its side-effects. Some are outright breaking the rules to send a message, but most people fear fines, and so the only means they feel they have to communicate to elected officials and candidates for office is observing the restrictions in a half-hearted way. This en masse failure to respect the rules properly is apparently working -- sources in the party in power claim that the party is dreading being trounced at the polls for this lockdown and trying to back away from it.
- chc 6y ago
  Do the elected officials in your country not have telephones or mailboxes?
  - Mediterraneo10 6y ago
    Not really. Not all countries are like the US, UK or Canada where elected representatives claim to welcome letters and phone calls from their constituents. In much of Eastern Europe politicians are perceived as being quite uninterested in hearing from their constituents, and even going out of their way to avoid contact with them after being elected. The average citizen feels pretty powerless, and people resort to other ways of showing their demands and rewarding candidates that try to meet them.

thomasfromcdnjs 6y ago

In Victoria, also bothered by how compliant everyone was. The lockdown was extremely hard. My vices tripled and I am still trying to reign them back in. I've had a low key depression since June last year and still trying to shake it. As the parent comment said, they were an introvert, there are lots of people who aren't. (me) In my little suburb, it looks like 10 small businesses had to shutdown while all the mega stores were allowed to continue operation. I feel sorry for anyone who had a less than average housemate, stuck in a place with people for that long causes tension regardless if you like the person. I don't see any problem with people who broke the rules. The government told us from the start that we were just flattening the curve but then without telling us extended the lock-downs in some attempt for an elimination strategy. I personally don't think anyone in the world will ever know or feel what happened here in Melbourne so I expect to be down-voted also. ---- Just going to add what our stage 4 lockdown looked like which kinda lasted for 2 months at it's worst. - 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home) - no visitors - 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months) - you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases)) - you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself - you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person) - lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons) - no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc - increase of police powers, fines around $1600 ----- We also locked a bunch of social housing people in their apartments for two weeks. They didn't even have balconies, just small ugly windows. I hope someone eventually gets sued for that decision. -> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/coronavirus-melbourne-public-housing-tower-shutdown-inquiry/12589372 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-25/coronavirus-melbourne...

elijaht 6y ago
I've been doing a large part of what you mention voluntarily for nearly the whole time and I'm curious what you take issue with - 8pm-5am curfew (you have to be at home) - no visitors - 5km radius (this lasted for what felt like 6 months) - you had to wear your mask as soon as you left your house (this went for months, we still have to wear masks in shops (even though we have zero cases)) - you could only go to the super market once per day, and you had to go by yourself - you were only allowed outside for exercise for 1 hour (with 1 person) - no gyms, hospo, group events, activities etc These all seem reasonable in a pandemic to me. Considering yalls success, I would say extremely reasonable. What is the alternative? A half assed version of those (my state imposed a weak curfew, bans to arbitrary activity, but nothing really targeted at preventing COVID). I think there is a particular horror in the current US (and elsewhere) experience where it quite literally feels like a lottery of who among your contacts will get it next. Is two months of an admitted harsh lockdown not worth avoiding that? - lots of shops forced you to give your details over and some demanded that you sanitize your hands (these are two things I didn't want to do for my own reasons) - increase of police powers, fines around $1600 That I find more concerning, and agree with you

batiudrami 6y ago

It depends on your priorities. The rules in Sydney, which they have had for a year and will likely have for all of 2021 (no more than 5 visitors, no gatherings >30 people in public) are much more restrictive than any other state in Australia. I much prefer a short and hard lockdown with closed borders to states who refuse to attempt elimination and being able to live a normal life as a result. The Victorian 2nd wave was undeniably a management screw up, and when restrictions were announced I was dubious that it’d even work (thought the cat was out of the bag) but the fact that their modelling forecasts were accurate (to the day!) months out shows they knew what they were doing and for me it seemed worthwhile.

ggm 6y ago

I think you probably came into this with a profound disagreement with the politics of Victoria, and more naturally aligned with NSW. If you actually didn't and would in more normal times vote labor, I'd be interested in that because what you say very strongly speaks to me, of a prior dissent from the Andrews government. You are using libertarian language in a way which implies you are not a statist, and do not believe what Victoria did was legal, let alone justified (btw in case it isn't clear, I categorically disagree on both fronts) I say this as a queenslander, where the overwhelming majority of the state backs what Labor has done, and thinks NSW can go jump, regarding who determines what happens at the borders. I doubt any Westralian, or Tasmanian, or any of the aboriginal communities (who self isolated day #1) would agree with you over lockdown btw.

dorkwood 6y ago

I'm curious what your thoughts are about the USA's response. In California, the majority of people obeyed the stay-at-home orders for the first few months, but then, much like yourself, started ignoring them completely. They announced a 'second lockdown' recently, which everyone kind of laughs about, because no one is actually paying attention to it. We're up to 700 deaths per day now.