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Apple discovered additional workers as young as 14 years old during an audit just three months later. Historically, ages 12 to 14 were traditional coming of ag

Apple discovered additional workers as young as 14 years old during an audit just three months later. Historically, ages 12 to 14 were traditional coming of age birthdays. (I think this is where we get the Jewish bar mitzvah, as just one example.) In other words, you were considered to be an adult by the age of 14, which aligns with what we generally know about human development in terms of you typically develop executive function about age 12 and it takes a couple of years of practice to get meaningfully good at it (though, granted, research suggests additional brain development continues to about age 25). In the US, it wasn't that many generations back that we routinely had kids in rural areas quit school after the eighth grade to work the fields. That means they were probably around 13 or 14 years old. My father dropped out of high school when he was sixteen because he was a big guy, it was the midst of The Great Depression and he could "earn a man's wage" because he could work hard like a grown man. His lack of formal education was not stigmatizing at that time. Now the military wants more education, but he had no problem going up in rank and making a good career for himself as a high school drop out. I've read some pieces some years back that indicate that when first world countries (for lack of a better term) go to third world countries and insist that kids aren't allowed to work, they actively interfere with survival for individuals in that place who are expected to work and do not have a social safety net. When we show up and impose our "high standards" to make us feel morally superior, we do so from a very privileged perspective and don't think about how that interacts with reality on the ground. There are American teens who work because they are part of a poor family and they need that money to help feed themselves. That happens in the US, yet we think all teenagers in some other country are supposed to have some pampered existence with parents providing for them while they laze around and maybe tend to their schooling. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know that it's a complicated issue and the headline here and the article aren't treating it with any nuance at all.

chemeng 6y ago
To me it seems the definition of "child labor" that we're collectively operating under needs clarification. My general assumption has been that "child labor" in the international industrial context was grade school children (5-12 years old or so) working, often in a compulsory manner. As someone who worked since the age of 14 (part-time) here in the US to help put food on the table, I don't see an issue with 14+ yr olds working. That was in the late 90's, but I can't imagine there aren't 14yr olds working in the US in all manner of jobs today after school and on weekends. The existence of of such jobs here in the US was the difference between food or going hungry for my family. I have to imagine that in less developed parts of the world this version of "child labor" may actually do more to lift those families out of poverty than eliminating them. Unfortunately, as you said, it's hard to discern what the nature and context of this labor truly is.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
CyberDildonics 6y ago
Was this supplier using child labor employing teenagers at least 15-16 years old part time while they went to school?
fouc 6y ago
> I've read some pieces some years back that indicate that when first world countries (for lack of a better term) go to third world countries and insist that kids aren't allowed to work, they actively interfere with survival for individuals in that place who are expected to work and do not have a social safety net. When we show up and impose our "high standards" to make us feel morally superior, we do so from a very privileged perspective and don't think about how that interacts with reality on the ground. This is an excellent point! It does seem a bit strange for apple to insist companies only use employees that are a minimum of 16 years old.
greedo 6y ago
There's a big difference between: "When we show up and impose our "high standards" to make us feel morally superior, we do so from a very privileged perspective and don't think about how that interacts with reality on the ground." and exploiting the economic situation in those countries.
- DoreenMichele 6y ago
  My son read some book -- he and I can't remember the name of it -- that more or less said "People in less developed countries line up around the block for jobs at multinational corporations because they pay twice as much and beat them half as much...before Westerners learn of the appallingly low pay, have a cow, threaten to vote with their wallet and insist on better treatment for those poor schmucks." Economic deals are routinely rooted in "It costs less to make it here for some reason. That's the whole appeal." and if you say we can't make those deals, you are more or less saying "We can't do business with those nations and should treat them all like charity cases where we can only send aid out of compassion for how much it sucks to be them while actively denying them the chance to participate in the world economy and improve their situation." Having been offered that same deal for a number of years as a homeless person, I can assure you that no one provides you a secure middle class life out of the goodness of their hearts and denying someone the opportunity to establish an earned income because of some kind of stated high ideals while also failing to take care of them in the manner to which you believe the entire world ought to be accustomed amounts to a big fat "Fuck you and the horse you road in on. Not my problem. I don't actually care about you. At all. And never will. I just like virtue signaling while being horrible to everyone poorer than me on some bullshit excuse or other."
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    > Not my problem. I don't actually care about you. At all. And never will. I just like virtue signaling while being horrible to everyone poorer than me on some bullshit excuse or other I feel it's more like: "I want to care about you, honestly - but I just saw the price tag and now I don't want to seem like I'm being committal while making awkward conversation and trying to find a way out of here, oh, would you look at the time!" Groupthink-led virtue-signaling is real, but I feel lots of people are being earnest and well-meaning when they talk big, but are ignorant-of the costs of walking-the-walk.
blablabla123 6y ago
I'm aware that school wasn't going that long in OECD countries either. At the same time, the last generation of this population going through for instance just 8 grades of schooling had to experience significantly less freedom, higher chances of poverty and a lower life expectency. Child labor is forbidden for good reasons and it's easy to forget what the exact reasons were if it hasn't occurred in the specific social bubble(s) we frequent.

chemeng 6y ago

To me it seems the definition of "child labor" that we're collectively operating under needs clarification. My general assumption has been that "child labor" in the international industrial context was grade school children (5-12 years old or so) working, often in a compulsory manner. As someone who worked since the age of 14 (part-time) here in the US to help put food on the table, I don't see an issue with 14+ yr olds working. That was in the late 90's, but I can't imagine there aren't 14yr olds working in the US in all manner of jobs today after school and on weekends. The existence of of such jobs here in the US was the difference between food or going hungry for my family. I have to imagine that in less developed parts of the world this version of "child labor" may actually do more to lift those families out of poverty than eliminating them. Unfortunately, as you said, it's hard to discern what the nature and context of this labor truly is.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

CyberDildonics 6y ago

Was this supplier using child labor employing teenagers at least 15-16 years old part time while they went to school?

fouc 6y ago

> I've read some pieces some years back that indicate that when first world countries (for lack of a better term) go to third world countries and insist that kids aren't allowed to work, they actively interfere with survival for individuals in that place who are expected to work and do not have a social safety net. When we show up and impose our "high standards" to make us feel morally superior, we do so from a very privileged perspective and don't think about how that interacts with reality on the ground. This is an excellent point! It does seem a bit strange for apple to insist companies only use employees that are a minimum of 16 years old.

greedo 6y ago

There's a big difference between: "When we show up and impose our "high standards" to make us feel morally superior, we do so from a very privileged perspective and don't think about how that interacts with reality on the ground." and exploiting the economic situation in those countries.

DoreenMichele 6y ago
My son read some book -- he and I can't remember the name of it -- that more or less said "People in less developed countries line up around the block for jobs at multinational corporations because they pay twice as much and beat them half as much...before Westerners learn of the appallingly low pay, have a cow, threaten to vote with their wallet and insist on better treatment for those poor schmucks." Economic deals are routinely rooted in "It costs less to make it here for some reason. That's the whole appeal." and if you say we can't make those deals, you are more or less saying "We can't do business with those nations and should treat them all like charity cases where we can only send aid out of compassion for how much it sucks to be them while actively denying them the chance to participate in the world economy and improve their situation." Having been offered that same deal for a number of years as a homeless person, I can assure you that no one provides you a secure middle class life out of the goodness of their hearts and denying someone the opportunity to establish an earned income because of some kind of stated high ideals while also failing to take care of them in the manner to which you believe the entire world ought to be accustomed amounts to a big fat "Fuck you and the horse you road in on. Not my problem. I don't actually care about you. At all. And never will. I just like virtue signaling while being horrible to everyone poorer than me on some bullshit excuse or other."
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  > Not my problem. I don't actually care about you. At all. And never will. I just like virtue signaling while being horrible to everyone poorer than me on some bullshit excuse or other I feel it's more like: "I want to care about you, honestly - but I just saw the price tag and now I don't want to seem like I'm being committal while making awkward conversation and trying to find a way out of here, oh, would you look at the time!" Groupthink-led virtue-signaling is real, but I feel lots of people are being earnest and well-meaning when they talk big, but are ignorant-of the costs of walking-the-walk.

blablabla123 6y ago

I'm aware that school wasn't going that long in OECD countries either. At the same time, the last generation of this population going through for instance just 8 grades of schooling had to experience significantly less freedom, higher chances of poverty and a lower life expectency. Child labor is forbidden for good reasons and it's easy to forget what the exact reasons were if it hasn't occurred in the specific social bubble(s) we frequent.