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> These people are idiots. It makes me uneasy to see how much commentary on recent events seems to focus on insulting these people instead of hearing how socie

by Lammy 6y ago

> These people are idiots. It makes me uneasy to see how much commentary on recent events seems to focus on insulting these people instead of hearing how society has failed them and why they're upset even if we tend to disagree with their suggested fixes. I think their presence in DC and that "colorful" person they elected are all symptoms of this behavior.

poulsbohemian 6y ago
> focus on insulting these people instead of hearing how society has failed them Look, I'm just a guy, with no fancy credentials or research to back this up, but the more I read, the more I try to understand this crowd, the more I talk with other people about this crowd, the more I believe these people are making choices. That is to say, there are plenty of educated and monied people running amok here. To believe that this is a crowd of impoverished, under/un-employed people with limited economic means that society has failed is in fact allowing them to behave recklessly and grow their audience. Nope. A lot of these folks know what they are doing or are allowing themselves to give in to their worst selves. That's not being failed, that's making choices.
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  > But she also said the GOP played a role, adding that “if we are the party of personal responsibility, we need to take personal responsibility.” https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/nikki-haley-criticizes-trump-456320 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/nikki-haley-critici...
mhh__ 6y ago
No amount of "economic anxiety" justifies an explicitly undemocratic coup attempt where people were running around looking to scalp democratically elected leaders. There are real ills in society, but - ignoring that republican voters are significantly uninformed about things like the party's support for healthcare, e.g. Efforts to scrap Obamacare largely hurt poor Trump voters - that doesn't excuse them from the fact that they've swallowed the Trump Koolaid and taken part in a coup. And besides, if you want to talk about society failing them - were there any black people in the Capitol?
- treeman79 6y ago
  But burning cities all summer is acceptable? Or taking over downtown city blocks for months...
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Nice strawman... I don't think either of those things were acceptable either. Quite frankly lumping in all of the protests over the summer, for example the one The Donald had tear gassed, with the looting that largely took place after dark is really saying the quiet part out loud. If they'd protested outside the Capitol not in it, I'd be more sympathetic, even if they were campaigning for the end of American Democracy.
    - treeman79 6y ago
      No straw man. A double standard.
      - mhh__ 6y ago
        Which I didn't mention. You raised I point that I didn't comment on even tangentially and argued against that instead.
      - jachee 6y ago
        Double standard? How many white men were strangled to death on camera, pleading "I can't breathe!"?[0] How many white women were murdered in their bedrooms after their apartment was stormed on a dubious-at-best, no-knock warrant? [1] Now, how many violent, white insurrectionists are getting slap-on-the-wrist misdemeanors for breaching our nation's sanctum sanctorum? [2][3][4] Yeah, there's a double standard. It's white supremacy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Breonna_Taylor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Breonna_Taylor [2] https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2021/01/syracuse-man-arrested-by-fbi-for-rioting-at-capitol-building.html https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2021/01/syracuse-man-arrested... [3] https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/jenny-cudd-fbi-arrested/513-fb4ff454-3bf0-4648-8983-660ec8f2601e https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/jenny-cudd-fbi-arres... [4] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/most-of-the-arrests-from-the-capitol-riots-have-been-misdemeanor-curfew-violations-this-searchable-table-shows-everyone-charged-so-far/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/most-of-the-arrests-...
paxys 6y ago
The people at the Capitol riot/insurrection were all relatively well off. This "economic anxiety" argument is tired and completely fake.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > The people at the Capitol riot/insurrection were all relatively well off. “All” probably overstates the case, but it certainly seems that they were disproportionately so. Certainly, those that have been arrested or identified from video (sets that seem to converge over time) seem to be largely employed (prior to the attack, less so after) and not poor.
  - Lammy 6y ago
    TIL rich people can afford to travel more than poor people :)
    - paxys 6y ago
      At least one of them took a private jet to DC
BurningFrog 6y ago
This is how we humans think of our outgroup. While your ingroup is unique individuals with good and bad traits, your outgroup is an undifferentiated "them" that is selfish, untrustworthy, stupid, the reason for all these problems we're having, and we really may have to do something about them one of these days!
- dane-pgp 6y ago
  You're right to remind us about the cognitive biases relating to in-groups and out-groups[1], but let's remember that in the context of this thread, the original comment about "idiots" was: "These people are idiots. Bringing their cellphones, recording video of themselves committing felonies and then posting them online." It doesn't seem that the commenter was branding every voter for the opposing candidate an idiot, just the specific group of people who shared evidence of themselves committing crimes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error
  - Lammy 6y ago
    It's a pretty common sentiment I've seen lately even here on HN, for example all of the threads about how amateurish Parler is/was (LOL did you know they're so stupid they didn't know to strip image metadata?), like we told them to go make their own website but then mock them while they learn how to do it. I'm just sick of being mean!
    - kelnos 6y ago
      I think there's a bit of a chasm between: "I'm a newbie web developer and I've never heard of EXIF", and "It didn't occur to me that I shouldn't have recorded video of myself committing crimes and then posted it on the internet." > I'm just sick of being mean! Fair point. And regardless, "these people are idiots" doesn't really help us make sense of what happened, or figure out how to stop people from even wanting to do things like this in the future.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
mikem170 6y ago
I agree! I wonder the same thing. So far I assume (not in order): A) the "American dream" and doing better economically than your parents ain't all it used to be, B) non-hispanic whites are loosing their majority status, C) mass media and the internet are more disrupting than the printing press was, D) greed, corruption, and other political inefficiencies, and E) the scale and pace of change are unprecedented. Everyone agrees that lots of stuff is broke. Politicians don't seem to be helping. We (the people) don't agree on next steps. Some want to turn back the clock. Others want to try something new. Too many want to impose their view on others who disagree. I assume we'll figure it out eventually. Some cultures/societies will have it easier than others.
minikites 6y ago
>insulting these people instead of hearing how society has failed them It's always "the left" that has to compromise and do the hard work of understanding and placating "the right". The right wing is immune to consequences and allergic to self-reflection. I'll stop calling them idiots when they grow up, actually take responsibility like adults do, and act accordingly.

by Lammy 6y ago

poulsbohemian 6y ago

> focus on insulting these people instead of hearing how society has failed them Look, I'm just a guy, with no fancy credentials or research to back this up, but the more I read, the more I try to understand this crowd, the more I talk with other people about this crowd, the more I believe these people are making choices. That is to say, there are plenty of educated and monied people running amok here. To believe that this is a crowd of impoverished, under/un-employed people with limited economic means that society has failed is in fact allowing them to behave recklessly and grow their audience. Nope. A lot of these folks know what they are doing or are allowing themselves to give in to their worst selves. That's not being failed, that's making choices.

dane-pgp 6y ago
> But she also said the GOP played a role, adding that “if we are the party of personal responsibility, we need to take personal responsibility.” https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/nikki-haley-criticizes-trump-456320 https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/07/nikki-haley-critici...

mhh__ 6y ago

No amount of "economic anxiety" justifies an explicitly undemocratic coup attempt where people were running around looking to scalp democratically elected leaders. There are real ills in society, but - ignoring that republican voters are significantly uninformed about things like the party's support for healthcare, e.g. Efforts to scrap Obamacare largely hurt poor Trump voters - that doesn't excuse them from the fact that they've swallowed the Trump Koolaid and taken part in a coup. And besides, if you want to talk about society failing them - were there any black people in the Capitol?

treeman79 6y ago
But burning cities all summer is acceptable? Or taking over downtown city blocks for months...
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Nice strawman... I don't think either of those things were acceptable either. Quite frankly lumping in all of the protests over the summer, for example the one The Donald had tear gassed, with the looting that largely took place after dark is really saying the quiet part out loud. If they'd protested outside the Capitol not in it, I'd be more sympathetic, even if they were campaigning for the end of American Democracy.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    No straw man. A double standard.
    - mhh__ 6y ago
      Which I didn't mention. You raised I point that I didn't comment on even tangentially and argued against that instead.
    - jachee 6y ago
      Double standard? How many white men were strangled to death on camera, pleading "I can't breathe!"?[0] How many white women were murdered in their bedrooms after their apartment was stormed on a dubious-at-best, no-knock warrant? [1] Now, how many violent, white insurrectionists are getting slap-on-the-wrist misdemeanors for breaching our nation's sanctum sanctorum? [2][3][4] Yeah, there's a double standard. It's white supremacy. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Breonna_Taylor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Breonna_Taylor [2] https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2021/01/syracuse-man-arrested-by-fbi-for-rioting-at-capitol-building.html https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2021/01/syracuse-man-arrested... [3] https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/jenny-cudd-fbi-arrested/513-fb4ff454-3bf0-4648-8983-660ec8f2601e https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/jenny-cudd-fbi-arres... [4] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/most-of-the-arrests-from-the-capitol-riots-have-been-misdemeanor-curfew-violations-this-searchable-table-shows-everyone-charged-so-far/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/most-of-the-arrests-...

paxys 6y ago

The people at the Capitol riot/insurrection were all relatively well off. This "economic anxiety" argument is tired and completely fake.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> The people at the Capitol riot/insurrection were all relatively well off. “All” probably overstates the case, but it certainly seems that they were disproportionately so. Certainly, those that have been arrested or identified from video (sets that seem to converge over time) seem to be largely employed (prior to the attack, less so after) and not poor.
- Lammy 6y ago
  TIL rich people can afford to travel more than poor people :)
  - paxys 6y ago
    At least one of them took a private jet to DC

BurningFrog 6y ago

This is how we humans think of our outgroup. While your ingroup is unique individuals with good and bad traits, your outgroup is an undifferentiated "them" that is selfish, untrustworthy, stupid, the reason for all these problems we're having, and we really may have to do something about them one of these days!

dane-pgp 6y ago
You're right to remind us about the cognitive biases relating to in-groups and out-groups[1], but let's remember that in the context of this thread, the original comment about "idiots" was: "These people are idiots. Bringing their cellphones, recording video of themselves committing felonies and then posting them online." It doesn't seem that the commenter was branding every voter for the opposing candidate an idiot, just the specific group of people who shared evidence of themselves committing crimes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error
- Lammy 6y ago
  It's a pretty common sentiment I've seen lately even here on HN, for example all of the threads about how amateurish Parler is/was (LOL did you know they're so stupid they didn't know to strip image metadata?), like we told them to go make their own website but then mock them while they learn how to do it. I'm just sick of being mean!
  - kelnos 6y ago
    I think there's a bit of a chasm between: "I'm a newbie web developer and I've never heard of EXIF", and "It didn't occur to me that I shouldn't have recorded video of myself committing crimes and then posted it on the internet." > I'm just sick of being mean! Fair point. And regardless, "these people are idiots" doesn't really help us make sense of what happened, or figure out how to stop people from even wanting to do things like this in the future.
- BurningFrog 6y ago

mikem170 6y ago

I agree! I wonder the same thing. So far I assume (not in order): A) the "American dream" and doing better economically than your parents ain't all it used to be, B) non-hispanic whites are loosing their majority status, C) mass media and the internet are more disrupting than the printing press was, D) greed, corruption, and other political inefficiencies, and E) the scale and pace of change are unprecedented. Everyone agrees that lots of stuff is broke. Politicians don't seem to be helping. We (the people) don't agree on next steps. Some want to turn back the clock. Others want to try something new. Too many want to impose their view on others who disagree. I assume we'll figure it out eventually. Some cultures/societies will have it easier than others.

minikites 6y ago

>insulting these people instead of hearing how society has failed them It's always "the left" that has to compromise and do the hard work of understanding and placating "the right". The right wing is immune to consequences and allergic to self-reflection. I'll stop calling them idiots when they grow up, actually take responsibility like adults do, and act accordingly.