5 ms·

I'm certainly not an expert in this, but the big issues when not using a "real" state machine but e.g. a bunch of separate booleans representing various parts o

I'm certainly not an expert in this, but the big issues when not using a "real" state machine but e.g. a bunch of separate booleans representing various parts of the state (isLoading, isError, ...) are the following: - you can be in an inconsistent state that should not exist, e.g. isLoading and isError at the same time - state transitions that should not be possible can be performed if you make a mistake The first one you can easily fix without a library by using a state enum instead of a bunch of booleans. The second one is probably better handled by a library that implements a declared state machine or state chart. In Javascript that would be e.g. xstate (https://xstate.js.org/ https://xstate.js.org/). I found that simply thinking about the states and writing them down as a state machine is already very helpful in avoiding certain kinds of issues that arise when you just do this on the fly.

taeric 6y ago
This gets greatly compounded when you have a lot of states. As an easy example, consider the "state machine" for a rubik's cube. All told, this isn't insurmountable, but you are almost certainly not going to write down all of the allowed states with all of the possible transitions. Which is not to say you can't make a program to reason about what the allowed states are. I started a probably bad attempt at that a while back at https://taeric.github.io/cube-permutations-1.html https://taeric.github.io/cube-permutations-1.html. (And, I just noticed the mathjax included on that page isn't loading. Almost certainly my fault... :( )
- fabian2k 6y ago
  State charts avoid that problem to some extent, you don't explode the number of state like in a simple finite state machine. But that's a point where you certainly want to use a library.
  - taeric 6y ago
    Right. My assertion would then be that many things are modeled on a ton of possible states. Granted. In context of this story, I'm in complete agreement with you.
- Jtsummers 6y ago
  Might be worth reposting that link, it's an interesting topic on its own. Rubik's cube transformations as permutations is one of those "obvious" things that had never occurred to me before, plus the neat interactive demo at the bottom.
  - taeric 6y ago
    Would love to see feedback on it. I posted back when I wrote it. I think it was mostly lost to the noise.
- madpata 6y ago
  I think your answer boils down to "pick the right tool for the job". Of course state machines are cumbersome for systems with loads of different states and transitions. But state machines are really useful when designing safety-critical systemsfor aeronautical, automotive or train components, especially if one uses timed automata for modelling. It's possible to either generate the code from the model or use the model to automatically generate a complete test suite for the modelled system. Very useful for verification purposes.
  - taeric 6y ago
    Completely agree. I did not mean my post as an argument against state machines.
- sdenton4 6y ago
  The permutations you're getting are Cayley's Theorem in action: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%27s_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%27s_theorem Basically, there's a finite group that acts on the Rubik's cube, and every finite group is a subgroup of a permutation group if you squint at it right. (what's a 'finite group action?' The 'group' is a set of composable and reversible "moves." The 'action' means that the group moves are effectively state transitions acting on a set of states, and that the action is nice and associative: g(hs) = (gh)s. And 'finite' just says that there's only so many states possible...) Really nice demo, by the way! Very fun to see the squares go flying.
  - taeric 6y ago
    I'll have to read up on Cayley's Theorem. Thanks for the link! Glad others found the squares flying as much fun to watch as I did. :D
hertzrat 6y ago
If you implement your favourite variant of the state pattern, state machines get a lot nicer to work with also - depending on the task at least. You wouldn’t bother with it to track a button press state in embedded but it’s nice when the state is complex, has some sort of “on tick” aspect, or there are a lot of states https://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/state.html https://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/state.html
fpoling 6y ago
On a few occasions in C++ I have found few boolean flags are superior to enum in code that evolves. What happens was that code changes effectively turned deterministic state machine into nondeterministic one. Modeling the relevant parallel states with bits is very natural then.

taeric 6y ago

This gets greatly compounded when you have a lot of states. As an easy example, consider the "state machine" for a rubik's cube. All told, this isn't insurmountable, but you are almost certainly not going to write down all of the allowed states with all of the possible transitions. Which is not to say you can't make a program to reason about what the allowed states are. I started a probably bad attempt at that a while back at https://taeric.github.io/cube-permutations-1.html https://taeric.github.io/cube-permutations-1.html. (And, I just noticed the mathjax included on that page isn't loading. Almost certainly my fault... :( )

fabian2k 6y ago
State charts avoid that problem to some extent, you don't explode the number of state like in a simple finite state machine. But that's a point where you certainly want to use a library.
- taeric 6y ago
  Right. My assertion would then be that many things are modeled on a ton of possible states. Granted. In context of this story, I'm in complete agreement with you.
Jtsummers 6y ago
Might be worth reposting that link, it's an interesting topic on its own. Rubik's cube transformations as permutations is one of those "obvious" things that had never occurred to me before, plus the neat interactive demo at the bottom.
- taeric 6y ago
  Would love to see feedback on it. I posted back when I wrote it. I think it was mostly lost to the noise.
madpata 6y ago
I think your answer boils down to "pick the right tool for the job". Of course state machines are cumbersome for systems with loads of different states and transitions. But state machines are really useful when designing safety-critical systemsfor aeronautical, automotive or train components, especially if one uses timed automata for modelling. It's possible to either generate the code from the model or use the model to automatically generate a complete test suite for the modelled system. Very useful for verification purposes.
- taeric 6y ago
  Completely agree. I did not mean my post as an argument against state machines.
sdenton4 6y ago
The permutations you're getting are Cayley's Theorem in action: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%27s_theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%27s_theorem Basically, there's a finite group that acts on the Rubik's cube, and every finite group is a subgroup of a permutation group if you squint at it right. (what's a 'finite group action?' The 'group' is a set of composable and reversible "moves." The 'action' means that the group moves are effectively state transitions acting on a set of states, and that the action is nice and associative: g(hs) = (gh)s. And 'finite' just says that there's only so many states possible...) Really nice demo, by the way! Very fun to see the squares go flying.
- taeric 6y ago
  I'll have to read up on Cayley's Theorem. Thanks for the link! Glad others found the squares flying as much fun to watch as I did. :D

hertzrat 6y ago

If you implement your favourite variant of the state pattern, state machines get a lot nicer to work with also - depending on the task at least. You wouldn’t bother with it to track a button press state in embedded but it’s nice when the state is complex, has some sort of “on tick” aspect, or there are a lot of states https://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/state.html https://gameprogrammingpatterns.com/state.html

fpoling 6y ago

On a few occasions in C++ I have found few boolean flags are superior to enum in code that evolves. What happens was that code changes effectively turned deterministic state machine into nondeterministic one. Modeling the relevant parallel states with bits is very natural then.