7 ms·

I say this every time this discussion comes up but I do feel it bears repeating: I switched away from monospaced a while ago and I am never going back. I encou

I say this every time this discussion comes up but I do feel it bears repeating: I switched away from monospaced a while ago and I am never going back. I encourage you to try something like Verdana for a week just to see how it feels.

dagw 15y ago
Well I've just tried it for 10 minutes, and I have to say it seems to work better that i initially expected/feared. So you might not be as crazy as you sound :) I might actually give it a few days and see what happens.
- seabee 15y ago
  This will affect you differently depending on what language you use and whether you like to align things in columns. Think of how some people format C functions, with each parameter on a new line aligned at the open paren. Personally I find that kind of alignment unnecessary and creates too much busywork. Proportional fonts prevent you from even trying. (Unless your editor supports elastic tabstops, but since very few do this is moot.) FWIW, I program in Georgia, until I find a serif font I like better. EVERYONE comments on it.
  - adriand 15y ago
    I have tab and column alignment OCD. I can't even read other people's code without getting a terrible itch to realign things. I think a proportional font would either drive me crazy or, on the other hand, might be kind of good for me.
    - Stormbringer 15y ago
      It's the dirty little secret of the "we hate tabs crowd" - they have to keep everybody in monospaced fonts otherwise their conspiracy to force programmers to repeatedly bash their space bars falls apart. All joking aside, the choice of font should reflect what it is that you are trying to do with the text. In theory a serifed font is more readable if you are reading the entire text, whereas a sans serif font is supposedly better for skimming through looking for something in particular. (so on a web page with an article, the article text should be serifed, and the sidebar menu should be sans serif) An application of this might be that if you are printing out a codebase in order to read it in entirety for the first time, you should use a font with serifs. whereas if the codebase is relatively familiar to you, but you are printing it out and going bug hunting or reviewing the code, use a sans serif font.
- kennywinker 15y ago
  The first few days feel a little weird, but I tried it almost a year ago and now I'm stick in Times New Roman. I actually mix a bit of monospaced in... I have Xcode make comments monospaced. Which is nice, because it makes them fade to the background a bit.
Karn 15y ago
I've been using Verdana for coding for years, with some modifications. I've changed the parentheses, braces, operators etc. to be more prominent - that makes it just perfect for me. Edit: screenshot here: http://i.imgur.com/xv5oz.png http://i.imgur.com/xv5oz.png
- xbryanx 15y ago
  Oh, nice job making the encapsulating characters extra bold.
- roryokane 15y ago
  Would you be willing to share your modified font? Also, what color scheme is that?
  - Karn 15y ago
    I'm not sure about the legality of sharing a Microsoft font... the color scheme is my own.
    - roryokane 15y ago
      Then could you post a diff of the OpenType file (e.g. to a pastebin)? Only those who already have the font would be able to produce your modified version. Alternatively, if creating a diff would take too much time, could you please tell me the names of the tools you used to create your own version of the font?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- sek 15y ago
  Also interested, standard Verdana in my terminal is unusable. Your screenshot looks awesome.
- X-Istence 15y ago
  Would you be willing to share your colorscheme?
turbohz 15y ago
My IDE is misconfigured, and for html/css code uses Arial, or some other proportional font. It's just painful to watch! The non grid alignment, randomness, just makes it more distracting to me. Perhaps if I was exposed to it for a long er period of time, a week as you suggested, this uneasiness will slowly fade. But, let me ask you: What's that you find so good about it? More content in less space? Why won't you go back?
- dexen 15y ago
  I'm with OP on the issue --- proportional font for code. I find it easier to read. It goes out if its way to go out of my way. Why would proportional font be easier to read? No idea, honestly. May be related to fact I read a lot of non-code (documents and fiction) as well, and those almost always come in proportional fonts.
  - spenrose 15y ago
    Indentation. Monospaced fonts allow much easier scanning of indentation levels. For Python this is crucial; for brace-delimited languages it's merely important for many of us.
    - dexen 15y ago
      I don't follow you -- `easier scanning of indentation levels'? With proportional font, the left-hand whitespace used for indentation of your code looks exactly as with monospaced font. Only the text itself changes somewhat. The width of tab/positions of tabstops has nothing to do with font itself; it's property (often settable) of the editor (or in rare case of the underlying terminal). May be expressed as `times the space width', but that's it. Perhaps you mean aligning of function argument and/or parameters one below another, or indentation of parts of expressions one below another? That indeed can't work with proportional font IF the peers in your project use different font (size or shape) or tab-stop setting. Can't work with monospaced font either -- again, IF the peers on your project use different tab-stop settings. Which is prevalent, AFAIK. Some use 12'' netbooks, other use 23'' desktops. I've even known a guy who used a T221 [1]. One size does not fit all. Nb., you may want to read up on http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ if you like to align stuff that way. I don't like that idea though. ---- [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T221 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T221
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
extension 15y ago
The problem is that you can't align things in the middle of a line. I do that all the time to make repetitive code easier to read (when repetition can't be avoided entirely).
nchlswu 15y ago
How's indenting/tabbing handled? "x spaces" or a tab? I'm wondering if you have any funny indenting/tabbing behaviour.
nsfmc 15y ago
There's a few things that i think you're reacting to (i think, because i've had similar feelings, but i could totally be wrong). The first is that Verdana is really nicely hinted, which means that, unlike most other fonts out there, Verdana has the advantage of always technically looking sharp. The second is that Verdana is mostly monolinear, like Courier or Andale or any of traditional monospaces, there's only the slightest bit of stroke variation (most of it optical), so you get style but you don't get the distraction (onscreen) of stroke modulation The third is that most proportional fonts have a comparatively larger pitch, so you get more characters in each line, which is also what you start seeing in 'next gen monospaces' that seem to make better use of their allotted horizontal space (and seem less wonky in general). The last, and arguably most important, is that almost all proportional fonts (verdana included) have got style. It's hard to emphasize enough that most of the arguments for Consolas or Inconsolata or Liberation or ____ are largely due to the fact that those fonts have an overt aesthetic agenda, which is sometimes not apparent in first-gen monospaces (although, to be fair, they and their brethren are stylized, it's just that we've grow numb to it) I'm personally a monospace sorta person (i like fedra mono)--there are some really nice (alas, non-free) monos out there to choose between that are more fun to use than the more stoic traditional monospaces. Part of why proportional fonts are appealing is that we rarely need monospace fonts anymore: their use is largely vestigial (and aesthetic-driven) and also that many programming languages (python et al) often have highly literate code that benefits from typefaces designed with legibility in mind. So i'm just sayin, i respect where you're coming from, but don't dismiss monos out of hand. There are nice ones which are coincidentally monospace, but aren't as frumpy or harsh as the monospace fonts that are typically advertised as 'best programming fonts.'
- ugh 15y ago
  I don't know. Verdana and style? Verdana? Letter Gothic, for example, has tons more style than most other fonts, proportional or not. Verdana, in that context, is to me just as to quite a bit more boring than nearly all the fonts mentioned in the article. (Courier excluded.)
  - nsfmc 15y ago
    Courier has tons style (i [heart] ny!) and see also [Courier Sans](http://lineto.com/The+Fonts/Font+Categories/Text+Fonts/Courier+Sans/ http://lineto.com/The+Fonts/Font+Categories/Text+Fonts/Couri...), and so does verdana. I know, i know, it's verdana, the scourge of late 90s web design but it still has style (doesn't everything?), it's just that verdana has come to encompass 'corporate' and 'default' and 'websafe' in much the same way that the verizon logo encompasses 'design by committee.' Verdana's got some serious baggage, but i would hardly say it's soulless. And in any case, it's pointless to argue this issue, but, i dunno, ten or twenty years from now, maybe we'll look back and feel differently about Verdana (in much the same way that people are warming up to Optima (the inspiration for letter gothic) again after what appears to have been a 20 year hiatus).
protomyth 15y ago
I bought The C++ Programming Language by Bjarne Stroustrup which had program code written in a proportional font. It is absolutely a nightmare to read. When using a proportional font, I have "jitter" issues as the cursor scrolls down and keeps switching places on the screen. I have to navigate vertically then make the horizontal adjustments.
husted 15y ago
I do all my programming in Source Insight and it lets you switch between monospaced and proportional fonts with a keystroke. I find it easier to read code in proportional mode but find editing is best done in monospace mode. I don't want to start an editor war but Source Insight is the best editor I've ever used and that includes Emacs and Vim. Yes I said it :-)
mryall 15y ago
Agreed. I find Lucida Grande a good programming font too. Would love to see a list of top 10 proportional programming fonts.

dagw 15y ago

Well I've just tried it for 10 minutes, and I have to say it seems to work better that i initially expected/feared. So you might not be as crazy as you sound :) I might actually give it a few days and see what happens.

seabee 15y ago
This will affect you differently depending on what language you use and whether you like to align things in columns. Think of how some people format C functions, with each parameter on a new line aligned at the open paren. Personally I find that kind of alignment unnecessary and creates too much busywork. Proportional fonts prevent you from even trying. (Unless your editor supports elastic tabstops, but since very few do this is moot.) FWIW, I program in Georgia, until I find a serif font I like better. EVERYONE comments on it.
- adriand 15y ago
  I have tab and column alignment OCD. I can't even read other people's code without getting a terrible itch to realign things. I think a proportional font would either drive me crazy or, on the other hand, might be kind of good for me.
  - Stormbringer 15y ago
    It's the dirty little secret of the "we hate tabs crowd" - they have to keep everybody in monospaced fonts otherwise their conspiracy to force programmers to repeatedly bash their space bars falls apart. All joking aside, the choice of font should reflect what it is that you are trying to do with the text. In theory a serifed font is more readable if you are reading the entire text, whereas a sans serif font is supposedly better for skimming through looking for something in particular. (so on a web page with an article, the article text should be serifed, and the sidebar menu should be sans serif) An application of this might be that if you are printing out a codebase in order to read it in entirety for the first time, you should use a font with serifs. whereas if the codebase is relatively familiar to you, but you are printing it out and going bug hunting or reviewing the code, use a sans serif font.
kennywinker 15y ago
The first few days feel a little weird, but I tried it almost a year ago and now I'm stick in Times New Roman. I actually mix a bit of monospaced in... I have Xcode make comments monospaced. Which is nice, because it makes them fade to the background a bit.

Karn 15y ago

I've been using Verdana for coding for years, with some modifications. I've changed the parentheses, braces, operators etc. to be more prominent - that makes it just perfect for me. Edit: screenshot here: http://i.imgur.com/xv5oz.png http://i.imgur.com/xv5oz.png

xbryanx 15y ago
Oh, nice job making the encapsulating characters extra bold.
roryokane 15y ago
Would you be willing to share your modified font? Also, what color scheme is that?
- Karn 15y ago
  I'm not sure about the legality of sharing a Microsoft font... the color scheme is my own.
  - roryokane 15y ago
    Then could you post a diff of the OpenType file (e.g. to a pastebin)? Only those who already have the font would be able to produce your modified version. Alternatively, if creating a diff would take too much time, could you please tell me the names of the tools you used to create your own version of the font?
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
sek 15y ago
Also interested, standard Verdana in my terminal is unusable. Your screenshot looks awesome.
X-Istence 15y ago
Would you be willing to share your colorscheme?

turbohz 15y ago

My IDE is misconfigured, and for html/css code uses Arial, or some other proportional font. It's just painful to watch! The non grid alignment, randomness, just makes it more distracting to me. Perhaps if I was exposed to it for a long er period of time, a week as you suggested, this uneasiness will slowly fade. But, let me ask you: What's that you find so good about it? More content in less space? Why won't you go back?

dexen 15y ago
I'm with OP on the issue --- proportional font for code. I find it easier to read. It goes out if its way to go out of my way. Why would proportional font be easier to read? No idea, honestly. May be related to fact I read a lot of non-code (documents and fiction) as well, and those almost always come in proportional fonts.
- spenrose 15y ago
  Indentation. Monospaced fonts allow much easier scanning of indentation levels. For Python this is crucial; for brace-delimited languages it's merely important for many of us.
  - dexen 15y ago
    I don't follow you -- `easier scanning of indentation levels'? With proportional font, the left-hand whitespace used for indentation of your code looks exactly as with monospaced font. Only the text itself changes somewhat. The width of tab/positions of tabstops has nothing to do with font itself; it's property (often settable) of the editor (or in rare case of the underlying terminal). May be expressed as `times the space width', but that's it. Perhaps you mean aligning of function argument and/or parameters one below another, or indentation of parts of expressions one below another? That indeed can't work with proportional font IF the peers in your project use different font (size or shape) or tab-stop setting. Can't work with monospaced font either -- again, IF the peers on your project use different tab-stop settings. Which is prevalent, AFAIK. Some use 12'' netbooks, other use 23'' desktops. I've even known a guy who used a T221 [1]. One size does not fit all. Nb., you may want to read up on http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ http://nickgravgaard.com/elastictabstops/ if you like to align stuff that way. I don't like that idea though. ---- [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T221 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T221

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

extension 15y ago

The problem is that you can't align things in the middle of a line. I do that all the time to make repetitive code easier to read (when repetition can't be avoided entirely).

nchlswu 15y ago

How's indenting/tabbing handled? "x spaces" or a tab? I'm wondering if you have any funny indenting/tabbing behaviour.

nsfmc 15y ago

There's a few things that i think you're reacting to (i think, because i've had similar feelings, but i could totally be wrong). The first is that Verdana is really nicely hinted, which means that, unlike most other fonts out there, Verdana has the advantage of always technically looking sharp. The second is that Verdana is mostly monolinear, like Courier or Andale or any of traditional monospaces, there's only the slightest bit of stroke variation (most of it optical), so you get style but you don't get the distraction (onscreen) of stroke modulation The third is that most proportional fonts have a comparatively larger pitch, so you get more characters in each line, which is also what you start seeing in 'next gen monospaces' that seem to make better use of their allotted horizontal space (and seem less wonky in general). The last, and arguably most important, is that almost all proportional fonts (verdana included) have got style. It's hard to emphasize enough that most of the arguments for Consolas or Inconsolata or Liberation or ____ are largely due to the fact that those fonts have an overt aesthetic agenda, which is sometimes not apparent in first-gen monospaces (although, to be fair, they and their brethren are stylized, it's just that we've grow numb to it) I'm personally a monospace sorta person (i like fedra mono)--there are some really nice (alas, non-free) monos out there to choose between that are more fun to use than the more stoic traditional monospaces. Part of why proportional fonts are appealing is that we rarely need monospace fonts anymore: their use is largely vestigial (and aesthetic-driven) and also that many programming languages (python et al) often have highly literate code that benefits from typefaces designed with legibility in mind. So i'm just sayin, i respect where you're coming from, but don't dismiss monos out of hand. There are nice ones which are coincidentally monospace, but aren't as frumpy or harsh as the monospace fonts that are typically advertised as 'best programming fonts.'

ugh 15y ago
I don't know. Verdana and style? Verdana? Letter Gothic, for example, has tons more style than most other fonts, proportional or not. Verdana, in that context, is to me just as to quite a bit more boring than nearly all the fonts mentioned in the article. (Courier excluded.)
- nsfmc 15y ago
  Courier has tons style (i [heart] ny!) and see also [Courier Sans](http://lineto.com/The+Fonts/Font+Categories/Text+Fonts/Courier+Sans/ http://lineto.com/The+Fonts/Font+Categories/Text+Fonts/Couri...), and so does verdana. I know, i know, it's verdana, the scourge of late 90s web design but it still has style (doesn't everything?), it's just that verdana has come to encompass 'corporate' and 'default' and 'websafe' in much the same way that the verizon logo encompasses 'design by committee.' Verdana's got some serious baggage, but i would hardly say it's soulless. And in any case, it's pointless to argue this issue, but, i dunno, ten or twenty years from now, maybe we'll look back and feel differently about Verdana (in much the same way that people are warming up to Optima (the inspiration for letter gothic) again after what appears to have been a 20 year hiatus).

protomyth 15y ago

I bought The C++ Programming Language by Bjarne Stroustrup which had program code written in a proportional font. It is absolutely a nightmare to read. When using a proportional font, I have "jitter" issues as the cursor scrolls down and keeps switching places on the screen. I have to navigate vertically then make the horizontal adjustments.

husted 15y ago

I do all my programming in Source Insight and it lets you switch between monospaced and proportional fonts with a keystroke. I find it easier to read code in proportional mode but find editing is best done in monospace mode. I don't want to start an editor war but Source Insight is the best editor I've ever used and that includes Emacs and Vim. Yes I said it :-)

mryall 15y ago

Agreed. I find Lucida Grande a good programming font too. Would love to see a list of top 10 proportional programming fonts.