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I applaud the author for keeping everything text file based. In general, I think we should strive for non-proprietary, standard file formats. Isn't docx far t

I applaud the author for keeping everything text file based. In general, I think we should strive for non-proprietary, standard file formats. Isn't docx far too one-sided and controlled in that regard? I wonder if anyone has some info on the "state of affairs" for the "document format race".

ordinaryradical 6y ago
None of this matters because the industry relies on docx (and it's a crusty, oldschool industry so good luck changing that). A minimum for a novel writing tool is that one can actually send the novel out in a format where your agent and editor will read it. Otherwise you're not getting that novel published.
- falcolas 6y ago
  If we're being fair, docx (or rather, tools that write docx files) offers a lot of tooling out of the box that is useful for proofreaders, editors, and typesetters. Revision history, suggestions, and non-printing comments are all incredibly useful.
- nix23 6y ago
  I see you hate the Unix philosophy....for conversions use pandoc. A Song of Ice and Fire was not written with Word.
  - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
    > A Song of Ice and Fire was not written with Word. When startups haven't even started up yet but are worrying about how they can scale to billion-dollar unicorn level, a common refrain on Hacker News has been "you are not Google." Allow me to give you the fiction writers' equivalent: you are not George R.R. Martin.
    - nix23 6y ago
      The output is md....dont you think you can convert that too let's say docx? You don't even have to be Google todo that. And if you want to let it proof read by George R.R. Martin you can even convert it to WordStar....magic eh? Pandoc can do that...your MS Word too?
      - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
        You're missing the point that people are trying to make here. Yes, it's possible to convert Markdown to a Word file, with a variety of tools. You can use Pandoc to do this if you are the sort of person who is comfortable using tools like Pandoc. I can do that, along with all sorts of other things, because I am that sort of nerd. However, most fiction writers and editors are not that sort of nerd. Most people don't want to use Markdown in the first place. Of the people who do want to use Markdown, not all of them are that sort of nerd, either. They want an "Export to > DOCX" command in their editor, not "save the Markdown file, open your terminal app, change to your documents directory, and type "pandoc -o my-novel.docx my-novel.md". (And that's assuming they're not doing something like, well, what NovelWriter does, saving individual chapters and perhaps even individual scenes as independent files.) Look, I love Pandoc. It's great. But it's not a tool for everyone. If someone is trying to embrace the plain text lifestyle with a tool like NovelWriter but pointing out not being able to export to a Word file is a problem for them, asking "are you comfortable with Unix command line tools" and then telling them about Pandoc if they say yes might be a great idea -- but starting out with "obviously you hate the Unix way", maybe not so much. > you can even convert it to WordStar....magic eh? Pandoc can do that. No, in fact it cannot. :)
        nix23 6y ago
        First, your probably right and i may/really have missed the point. Second...it really cant. Shame on me, and sorry for my tone.
        spijdar 6y ago
        > (And that's assuming they're not doing something like, well, what NovelWriter does, saving individual chapters and perhaps even individual scenes as independent files.) This is totally unrelated to the gist of this thread, but I just wanted to point out that novelWriter's project builder outputs to a single file, which can be markdown, ODF, PDF, HTML, and others. Pandoc could then make a single DOCX file out of that. Your point still stands that this is too complicated for the average user, but I just wanted to mention this since it might make a difference for technically minded writers considering novelWriter.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    When you too can afford to pay your editors, proofreaders, and publishers to accommodate your unique file formats and the associated changes to their workflow, you too can write in WordStar.
    - nix23 6y ago
      Since you obvious don't know what unix philosophy is, it's a md writer..that's it, you want to convert it..take a converter like pandoc. If you really think every writing program should have it's own converters..well then you end up with less interchangeable stuff. One tool for Writing another one for conversion..is that so complicated?
      - falcolas 6y ago
        For a layman, err, editor? Absolutely. It's a completely different workflow than what they're used to. The Unix philosophy has nothing to do with this, since we're not talking about programming, we're talking about writing.
        nix23 6y ago
        >since we're not talking about programming Has nothing todo with programming, a real hammer is better as the backside of an axe. A Specialized Knife is better then a Swiss-Pocket Knife. One tool for one job but make that job perfect.
        falcolas 6y ago
        Ever see a framer’s axe? It’s one part axe, one part hammer. It’s perfect for framers - they love it. It’s one tool which lets them chop, modify, remove nails, hammer in nails, whatever they need to do, without having to carry 4-5 different tools. The idea that a specialized tool is always better than a multi-tasking tool is simply not true. One must only look at the popularity and utility of leatherman multi-tools to see this to be true. Even in programming circles, one needs only to look at how many options there are for ‘ls’ to see that “one tool for one purpose” is not always the best thing.
- youngtaff 6y ago
  Depends on what industry… O'Reilly relies on Asciidoc
- vikingcaffiene 6y ago
  This is correct. Any writing software that aims for an audience larger than HN needs to have a very robust docx export capability. My partner tells me that it has to be formatted a certain way down to the font and line spacing too or they won't accept it. I'm cracking up at all these comments suggesting that her recipients brew install pandoc lol. Good luck with that.
michaericalribo 6y ago
To be fair, docx is non-proprietary. And as an ISO standard, it is a very standard format.

ordinaryradical 6y ago

None of this matters because the industry relies on docx (and it's a crusty, oldschool industry so good luck changing that). A minimum for a novel writing tool is that one can actually send the novel out in a format where your agent and editor will read it. Otherwise you're not getting that novel published.

falcolas 6y ago
If we're being fair, docx (or rather, tools that write docx files) offers a lot of tooling out of the box that is useful for proofreaders, editors, and typesetters. Revision history, suggestions, and non-printing comments are all incredibly useful.
nix23 6y ago
I see you hate the Unix philosophy....for conversions use pandoc. A Song of Ice and Fire was not written with Word.
- chipotle_coyote 6y ago
  > A Song of Ice and Fire was not written with Word. When startups haven't even started up yet but are worrying about how they can scale to billion-dollar unicorn level, a common refrain on Hacker News has been "you are not Google." Allow me to give you the fiction writers' equivalent: you are not George R.R. Martin.
  - nix23 6y ago
    The output is md....dont you think you can convert that too let's say docx? You don't even have to be Google todo that. And if you want to let it proof read by George R.R. Martin you can even convert it to WordStar....magic eh? Pandoc can do that...your MS Word too?
    - chipotle_coyote 6y ago
      You're missing the point that people are trying to make here. Yes, it's possible to convert Markdown to a Word file, with a variety of tools. You can use Pandoc to do this if you are the sort of person who is comfortable using tools like Pandoc. I can do that, along with all sorts of other things, because I am that sort of nerd. However, most fiction writers and editors are not that sort of nerd. Most people don't want to use Markdown in the first place. Of the people who do want to use Markdown, not all of them are that sort of nerd, either. They want an "Export to > DOCX" command in their editor, not "save the Markdown file, open your terminal app, change to your documents directory, and type "pandoc -o my-novel.docx my-novel.md". (And that's assuming they're not doing something like, well, what NovelWriter does, saving individual chapters and perhaps even individual scenes as independent files.) Look, I love Pandoc. It's great. But it's not a tool for everyone. If someone is trying to embrace the plain text lifestyle with a tool like NovelWriter but pointing out not being able to export to a Word file is a problem for them, asking "are you comfortable with Unix command line tools" and then telling them about Pandoc if they say yes might be a great idea -- but starting out with "obviously you hate the Unix way", maybe not so much. > you can even convert it to WordStar....magic eh? Pandoc can do that. No, in fact it cannot. :)
      - nix23 6y ago
        First, your probably right and i may/really have missed the point. Second...it really cant. Shame on me, and sorry for my tone.
      - spijdar 6y ago
        > (And that's assuming they're not doing something like, well, what NovelWriter does, saving individual chapters and perhaps even individual scenes as independent files.) This is totally unrelated to the gist of this thread, but I just wanted to point out that novelWriter's project builder outputs to a single file, which can be markdown, ODF, PDF, HTML, and others. Pandoc could then make a single DOCX file out of that. Your point still stands that this is too complicated for the average user, but I just wanted to mention this since it might make a difference for technically minded writers considering novelWriter.
- falcolas 6y ago
  When you too can afford to pay your editors, proofreaders, and publishers to accommodate your unique file formats and the associated changes to their workflow, you too can write in WordStar.
  - nix23 6y ago
    Since you obvious don't know what unix philosophy is, it's a md writer..that's it, you want to convert it..take a converter like pandoc. If you really think every writing program should have it's own converters..well then you end up with less interchangeable stuff. One tool for Writing another one for conversion..is that so complicated?
    - falcolas 6y ago
      For a layman, err, editor? Absolutely. It's a completely different workflow than what they're used to. The Unix philosophy has nothing to do with this, since we're not talking about programming, we're talking about writing.
      - nix23 6y ago
        >since we're not talking about programming Has nothing todo with programming, a real hammer is better as the backside of an axe. A Specialized Knife is better then a Swiss-Pocket Knife. One tool for one job but make that job perfect.
        falcolas 6y ago
        Ever see a framer’s axe? It’s one part axe, one part hammer. It’s perfect for framers - they love it. It’s one tool which lets them chop, modify, remove nails, hammer in nails, whatever they need to do, without having to carry 4-5 different tools. The idea that a specialized tool is always better than a multi-tasking tool is simply not true. One must only look at the popularity and utility of leatherman multi-tools to see this to be true. Even in programming circles, one needs only to look at how many options there are for ‘ls’ to see that “one tool for one purpose” is not always the best thing.
youngtaff 6y ago
Depends on what industry… O'Reilly relies on Asciidoc
vikingcaffiene 6y ago
This is correct. Any writing software that aims for an audience larger than HN needs to have a very robust docx export capability. My partner tells me that it has to be formatted a certain way down to the font and line spacing too or they won't accept it. I'm cracking up at all these comments suggesting that her recipients brew install pandoc lol. Good luck with that.

michaericalribo 6y ago

To be fair, docx is non-proprietary. And as an ISO standard, it is a very standard format.