4 ms·

There must be some Thai readers on HN.. even ones who support these lèse-majesté laws. I'm curious, for Thai supporters, what is the justification for them?

vbtemp 6y ago
You will not find Thai people who support it, except cronies who benefit from the royal patronage network. The lese majeste laws are simply the work of an autocratic leader and institution that positions itself above the law. Any ordinary Thai who might have been okay with these laws[1] during the reign of the last king (who did genuinely serve as a kind of emotional anchor for Thais, despite the self-enrichment of his family) certainly sees them for what they are: The frantic efforts of a demented, bizarre, spoiled boy-child to deflect criticism and cement power. [1] Also remember, during the time of the last king, the laws were not really enforced. We all remember stories of black-out drunk Aussies pissing on a portrait of the king by a busy road getting arrested for it, but beyond those theatrical and scandalous episodes, the laws did not really affect many people until the new king took over.
- nont 6y ago
  You actually do. They're mostly old generations
wsc981 6y ago
I live in Thailand and I know many Thai people don't love the current king. But from what I've seen the father of the current king was loved by most -if not all- Thais and I feel most Thais supported the laws in case of the previous king. But I believe it's very important that in Thai schools there are practices, even starting at kindergarten, to teach children to kneel or bow in front of the picture of the king daily. From what I understand children also sing the Thai national anthem at the start of the school day. Every day at 2 moments (09:00 and 17:00) many people stop what they're doing and stand in attention for a second while the national anthem plays on TV, radio in cinemas, etc... So you might understand that reference for the king is a big part of the education system here. Also, most Thais just don't have the money to travel abroad. And likely also don't see much of other countries on television. News channels on TV might spend 95% of the news on happenings inside the country (e.g. visits of royal family to villages, etc...). As such, many Thais might not be aware that some countries operate very different from the Thai system.
- beervirus 6y ago
  > But I believe it's very important that in Thai schools there are practices, even starting at kindergarten, to teach children to kneel or bow in front of the picture of the king daily. From what I understand children also sing the Thai national anthem at the start of the school day. Every day at 2 moments (09:00 and 17:00) many people stop what they're doing and stand in attention for a second while the national anthem plays on TV, radio in cinemas, etc... So you might understand that reference for the king is a big part of the education system here. That is creepy as fuck.
  - Existenceblinks 6y ago
    Those 80 years of brainwashing is not working for majority of kids today anymore. 2020 turned out as a year of mass awakening. I have some hope for gen Z teenageers, though uncertainty is very uncertain .. how would they be able to dismantle these network monarchy.
  - 0-_-0 6y ago
    > That is creepy as fuck. Maybe, but I suspect Thailand is a more united nation than the US.
    - trasz 6y ago
      Schools in USA do something quite similar. And yeah, from European point of view it's quite creepy.
    - beervirus 6y ago
      Unity through brainwashing and indoctrination? No thanks.
    - carapace 6y ago
      We have out Pledge of Allegiance (and arguments over including or excluding "under God" from it.) The thing about the USA is that what unites or unifies us is our shared values, not the (worship of) a King. The whole point of democracy is that free people coming together to support each other can create a government more stable and durable and satisfying than Monarchy. The experiment is ongoing. (It's also more humane: think about what a mind-fuck it must be to be singled out and told "you're the prince, you're the king". You have no personal freedom at all. Your whole life is regimented and programmed. What are you doing today? Put on this funny dress and sit on this uncomfortable chair for N hours looking stuffed while everybody else rattles around you like so many robots. Oh and by the way, a few determined people are trying to kill you all day every day, and some of them are your own family.) (Our guys only have to do four or eight years before the mast. Then we chuck 'em. They're always grey and drained afterward but at least they live through it, mostly.)
Existenceblinks 6y ago
Thai tech people have different problematic mindset. They do not support lèse-majesté law, but most of them (in my observation) are not progressive either. These coming up gen Z are chasing their pro-capitalism ass (But these tech ppl hide those mindset really well .. not getting caught so easily!)
nont 6y ago
Absolutely, the first argument is always the country is "free" (Thai means free) because of their heroic ancestors in the past. The freedom in this case means never being colonized by other countries. The irony is we have never been freed from them,and all the propagandas are made so that we must feel indebted. There's a song playing every Dec 5 whole day on almost every street saying our value is less than a speck of dust under their feet. Your kids are taught to sing these kind a songs every day as well in some schools. Secondly you are not taught to question, and rather criticized for questioning. Not sure if any of you have been in a class with a Thai student, but I bet they all are quiet. In a family, you must never question your parents or you will be punished. These royal families (plural because there are many) have a pronoun like your royal father mother etc, so know your place. 3rd, they are very coupled to religious institutions and it's like a heresy to even talk about them. Any bad happened to those anti monarchy people are believed to have conducted bad karmas. It's stupid, but there are many stations that would revere them as the reincarnation of the Buddha. Last for now but there are more, they have high influence on the military and Thai conglomerates. The king even has his own unit, brainwashed to just serve him. Thai conglomerates will marry their children with the royal families just to gain more power and respect. There are more but gotta get back to work now.
DenisM 6y ago
Every nation needs something that unites it, a sense of identity and purpose. The French, for example, were united by the King and the Church, until they were not. After the revolution they became very united by their nationalism, in the original sense of the word - shared language, values, traditions, symbols, customs, as well as by the ideals of republican democratic governance. Historically most nations were united in Monarchy and/or Religion. Over time some switched over to either nationalism or an ideology like communism, and some even switched back to Monarchy later on. A country that lost its uniting force can easily disappear into a fiery flash of a civil war or sink into a suffocating simmering of gradual societal disintegration. One might conclude that any attack on the Uniting Symbol is a heinous crime and needs to be stamped out as quickly as possible. This is questionable from the modern western perspective, but I can see how one could make this argument in good faith from the other parts of the world. Especially from the countries where they do not (yet) have a different Uniting Symbol.

vbtemp 6y ago

You will not find Thai people who support it, except cronies who benefit from the royal patronage network. The lese majeste laws are simply the work of an autocratic leader and institution that positions itself above the law. Any ordinary Thai who might have been okay with these laws[1] during the reign of the last king (who did genuinely serve as a kind of emotional anchor for Thais, despite the self-enrichment of his family) certainly sees them for what they are: The frantic efforts of a demented, bizarre, spoiled boy-child to deflect criticism and cement power. [1] Also remember, during the time of the last king, the laws were not really enforced. We all remember stories of black-out drunk Aussies pissing on a portrait of the king by a busy road getting arrested for it, but beyond those theatrical and scandalous episodes, the laws did not really affect many people until the new king took over.

nont 6y ago
You actually do. They're mostly old generations

wsc981 6y ago

I live in Thailand and I know many Thai people don't love the current king. But from what I've seen the father of the current king was loved by most -if not all- Thais and I feel most Thais supported the laws in case of the previous king. But I believe it's very important that in Thai schools there are practices, even starting at kindergarten, to teach children to kneel or bow in front of the picture of the king daily. From what I understand children also sing the Thai national anthem at the start of the school day. Every day at 2 moments (09:00 and 17:00) many people stop what they're doing and stand in attention for a second while the national anthem plays on TV, radio in cinemas, etc... So you might understand that reference for the king is a big part of the education system here. Also, most Thais just don't have the money to travel abroad. And likely also don't see much of other countries on television. News channels on TV might spend 95% of the news on happenings inside the country (e.g. visits of royal family to villages, etc...). As such, many Thais might not be aware that some countries operate very different from the Thai system.

beervirus 6y ago
> But I believe it's very important that in Thai schools there are practices, even starting at kindergarten, to teach children to kneel or bow in front of the picture of the king daily. From what I understand children also sing the Thai national anthem at the start of the school day. Every day at 2 moments (09:00 and 17:00) many people stop what they're doing and stand in attention for a second while the national anthem plays on TV, radio in cinemas, etc... So you might understand that reference for the king is a big part of the education system here. That is creepy as fuck.
- Existenceblinks 6y ago
  Those 80 years of brainwashing is not working for majority of kids today anymore. 2020 turned out as a year of mass awakening. I have some hope for gen Z teenageers, though uncertainty is very uncertain .. how would they be able to dismantle these network monarchy.
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  > That is creepy as fuck. Maybe, but I suspect Thailand is a more united nation than the US.
  - trasz 6y ago
    Schools in USA do something quite similar. And yeah, from European point of view it's quite creepy.
  - beervirus 6y ago
    Unity through brainwashing and indoctrination? No thanks.
  - carapace 6y ago
    We have out Pledge of Allegiance (and arguments over including or excluding "under God" from it.) The thing about the USA is that what unites or unifies us is our shared values, not the (worship of) a King. The whole point of democracy is that free people coming together to support each other can create a government more stable and durable and satisfying than Monarchy. The experiment is ongoing. (It's also more humane: think about what a mind-fuck it must be to be singled out and told "you're the prince, you're the king". You have no personal freedom at all. Your whole life is regimented and programmed. What are you doing today? Put on this funny dress and sit on this uncomfortable chair for N hours looking stuffed while everybody else rattles around you like so many robots. Oh and by the way, a few determined people are trying to kill you all day every day, and some of them are your own family.) (Our guys only have to do four or eight years before the mast. Then we chuck 'em. They're always grey and drained afterward but at least they live through it, mostly.)

Existenceblinks 6y ago

Thai tech people have different problematic mindset. They do not support lèse-majesté law, but most of them (in my observation) are not progressive either. These coming up gen Z are chasing their pro-capitalism ass (But these tech ppl hide those mindset really well .. not getting caught so easily!)

nont 6y ago

Absolutely, the first argument is always the country is "free" (Thai means free) because of their heroic ancestors in the past. The freedom in this case means never being colonized by other countries. The irony is we have never been freed from them,and all the propagandas are made so that we must feel indebted. There's a song playing every Dec 5 whole day on almost every street saying our value is less than a speck of dust under their feet. Your kids are taught to sing these kind a songs every day as well in some schools. Secondly you are not taught to question, and rather criticized for questioning. Not sure if any of you have been in a class with a Thai student, but I bet they all are quiet. In a family, you must never question your parents or you will be punished. These royal families (plural because there are many) have a pronoun like your royal father mother etc, so know your place. 3rd, they are very coupled to religious institutions and it's like a heresy to even talk about them. Any bad happened to those anti monarchy people are believed to have conducted bad karmas. It's stupid, but there are many stations that would revere them as the reincarnation of the Buddha. Last for now but there are more, they have high influence on the military and Thai conglomerates. The king even has his own unit, brainwashed to just serve him. Thai conglomerates will marry their children with the royal families just to gain more power and respect. There are more but gotta get back to work now.

DenisM 6y ago

Every nation needs something that unites it, a sense of identity and purpose. The French, for example, were united by the King and the Church, until they were not. After the revolution they became very united by their nationalism, in the original sense of the word - shared language, values, traditions, symbols, customs, as well as by the ideals of republican democratic governance. Historically most nations were united in Monarchy and/or Religion. Over time some switched over to either nationalism or an ideology like communism, and some even switched back to Monarchy later on. A country that lost its uniting force can easily disappear into a fiery flash of a civil war or sink into a suffocating simmering of gradual societal disintegration. One might conclude that any attack on the Uniting Symbol is a heinous crime and needs to be stamped out as quickly as possible. This is questionable from the modern western perspective, but I can see how one could make this argument in good faith from the other parts of the world. Especially from the countries where they do not (yet) have a different Uniting Symbol.