4 ms·

Finland maintains a healthy distance to the west's extreme capitalism. Healthcare is free. Education is free (and mandatory). Housing is free. Water is free. El

Finland maintains a healthy distance to the west's extreme capitalism. Healthcare is free. Education is free (and mandatory). Housing is free. Water is free. Electricity is free. Internet is free. The government owns the only railroad. Many governments, including the current one, consist of majority Social Democratic Party. Convicted criminals can still vote. All males are drafted into the army. Newborns receive a free package of baby products. Taxes are among the highest in the world (wealth redistribution). There is a sizable political national-socialist sentiment (a little worrying even). I'll grant you, the communist-leaning powers did lose the civil war in 1918 though.

morceauxdebois 6y ago
None of those are policies exclusive to a socialist system. But what do i know about Social Democracy, im just Swedish.
- hypertele-Xii 6y ago
  Please indicate which of these policies are presented by the extremely capitalist US, which I compared Finland to.
- cygx 6y ago
  But you do know that historically, 'Social Democratic' is just a name chosen by European socialist parties for themselves? The membership list[1] of the Party of European Socialists (known as Europeiska socialdemokratiska partiet in Swedish) reflects this to this day. It is of course true that a Social Democracy is not a fully socialist society, but that discussion was already had last century during the Revisionismusdebatt kicked off by Eduard Bernstein in 1896. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists#Member_parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists#M...
  - zajio1am 6y ago
    Yes, but these parties use 'social democratic' after a split of socialist parties in 1920s into social democratic parties and communist parties. So no need to use 'socialist' instead of 'social democratic' unless you want to dogwhistle to communist supporters. Also note that this meaning of term 'socialist' is rather archaic (and not in opposition to term 'capitalist'). The modern meaning of 'socialism' is to describe economic system in countries of soviet communist bloc.
    - cygx 6y ago
      > Yes, but these parties use 'social democratic' after a split of socialist parties in 1920s Depends on the country: The parties are still called 'socialist' to this day in Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Spain. > The modern meaning of 'socialism' is to describe economic system in countries of soviet communist bloc. Quote German Wikipedia on Sozialismus[1], which views Sozialdemokratie as one of its branches: > Demzufolge wird auch grob zwischen den Ausrichtungen von Kommunismus, Sozialdemokratie oder Anarchismus differenziert. > Hence one differentiates roughly between the strains of Communism, Social Democracy or Anarchism. Quote Wikipedia on Sozialdemokratie[2]: > Sozialdemokratie ist eine politische Bewegung und politische Ideologie der Linken, die sich selbst – mal mehr, mal weniger stark ausgeprägt – als Form eines reformistischen demokratischen Sozialismus betrachtet. > Social Democracy is a political movement and political ideology of the left, which views itself - sometimes to a greater, sometimes to a lesser extent - as a form of reformist democratic socialism. Quote Hamburger Programm, the German SPD's party platform[3]: > The end of the soviet type state socialism did not disprove the idea of democratic socialism but it clearly confirmed the orientation of social democracy towards core values. In our understanding democratic socialism remains the vision of a free and fair society in solidarity. Its realization is a permanent task for us. The principle for our actions is social democracy. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialismus https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialismus [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialdemokratie https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialdemokratie [3] https://www.spd.de/fileadmin/Dokumente/Beschluesse/Grundsatzprogramme/hamburger_programm_englisch.pdf https://www.spd.de/fileadmin/Dokumente/Beschluesse/Grundsatz...
taffer 6y ago
> Electricity is free That's hard to believe. Can I just go there (as an EU citizen) and mine bitcoins for free?
- hypertele-Xii 6y ago
  Free to a point. The government has a (supposedly) reasonable ceiling for electricity consumption. I actually hit that ceiling a while back, but got the decision overturned by complaining about it. I'm running a fair bit of tech 24/7 including electric heating (given Finland winters), no bitcoins though. I've yet to study the exact nature of the EU with regards to social support, so I don't know if you could just come here and collect welfare.
  - taffer 6y ago
    I don't understand your last sentence. Is electricity free only for those who collect social welfare?
    - hypertele-Xii 6y ago
      Yes. You have to be a Finnish citizen with no income to qualify. Everyone not participating in the capitalist economy (by owning business or being employed at one) is essentially a government/military reserve employee on indefinite paid leave receiving a budget that covers virtually all living expenses to quite a reasonable standard. And it's baseline, every citizen eligible, other obligations withstanding. You'd have to really make a mess of your life to not live comfortably. The only downside is, if there's war, I have to give my life for the country. Which, given Finland's history (defensiveness and neutrality), seems like a good deal to me. Most men get actively recalled to military trainings; I've personally been exempt during peacetime. I could indeed mine bitcoins for free. But that'd be a gross misuse of my time and resources. I'd rather create something meaningful than literally waste electricity just to prove that I have it (the idiotic quality of proof-of-work cryptocurrency).
      - passerby1 6y ago
jusssi 6y ago
> Education is free (and mandatory). Yes. > Healthcare is free. Not quite, but close. There's a token payment for using the services. Prescription meds are covered when they go over ~€500/year. Social services will cover for you if you can't pay. > Housing is free. Water is free. Electricity is free. Internet is free. No, unless you have no property (you need to sell or lose everything first) and no income, in which case the social services covers the basic necessities for you: housing, water, electricity, even internet access are considered basic necessities. > Convicted criminals can still vote. All males are drafted into the army. I don't see what either of these has to do with capitalist/socialist.

morceauxdebois 6y ago

None of those are policies exclusive to a socialist system. But what do i know about Social Democracy, im just Swedish.

hypertele-Xii 6y ago
Please indicate which of these policies are presented by the extremely capitalist US, which I compared Finland to.
cygx 6y ago
But you do know that historically, 'Social Democratic' is just a name chosen by European socialist parties for themselves? The membership list[1] of the Party of European Socialists (known as Europeiska socialdemokratiska partiet in Swedish) reflects this to this day. It is of course true that a Social Democracy is not a fully socialist society, but that discussion was already had last century during the Revisionismusdebatt kicked off by Eduard Bernstein in 1896. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists#Member_parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists#M...
- zajio1am 6y ago
  Yes, but these parties use 'social democratic' after a split of socialist parties in 1920s into social democratic parties and communist parties. So no need to use 'socialist' instead of 'social democratic' unless you want to dogwhistle to communist supporters. Also note that this meaning of term 'socialist' is rather archaic (and not in opposition to term 'capitalist'). The modern meaning of 'socialism' is to describe economic system in countries of soviet communist bloc.
  - cygx 6y ago
    > Yes, but these parties use 'social democratic' after a split of socialist parties in 1920s Depends on the country: The parties are still called 'socialist' to this day in Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Spain. > The modern meaning of 'socialism' is to describe economic system in countries of soviet communist bloc. Quote German Wikipedia on Sozialismus[1], which views Sozialdemokratie as one of its branches: > Demzufolge wird auch grob zwischen den Ausrichtungen von Kommunismus, Sozialdemokratie oder Anarchismus differenziert. > Hence one differentiates roughly between the strains of Communism, Social Democracy or Anarchism. Quote Wikipedia on Sozialdemokratie[2]: > Sozialdemokratie ist eine politische Bewegung und politische Ideologie der Linken, die sich selbst – mal mehr, mal weniger stark ausgeprägt – als Form eines reformistischen demokratischen Sozialismus betrachtet. > Social Democracy is a political movement and political ideology of the left, which views itself - sometimes to a greater, sometimes to a lesser extent - as a form of reformist democratic socialism. Quote Hamburger Programm, the German SPD's party platform[3]: > The end of the soviet type state socialism did not disprove the idea of democratic socialism but it clearly confirmed the orientation of social democracy towards core values. In our understanding democratic socialism remains the vision of a free and fair society in solidarity. Its realization is a permanent task for us. The principle for our actions is social democracy. [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialismus https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialismus [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialdemokratie https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialdemokratie [3] https://www.spd.de/fileadmin/Dokumente/Beschluesse/Grundsatzprogramme/hamburger_programm_englisch.pdf https://www.spd.de/fileadmin/Dokumente/Beschluesse/Grundsatz...

taffer 6y ago

> Electricity is free That's hard to believe. Can I just go there (as an EU citizen) and mine bitcoins for free?

hypertele-Xii 6y ago
Free to a point. The government has a (supposedly) reasonable ceiling for electricity consumption. I actually hit that ceiling a while back, but got the decision overturned by complaining about it. I'm running a fair bit of tech 24/7 including electric heating (given Finland winters), no bitcoins though. I've yet to study the exact nature of the EU with regards to social support, so I don't know if you could just come here and collect welfare.
- taffer 6y ago
  I don't understand your last sentence. Is electricity free only for those who collect social welfare?
  - hypertele-Xii 6y ago
    Yes. You have to be a Finnish citizen with no income to qualify. Everyone not participating in the capitalist economy (by owning business or being employed at one) is essentially a government/military reserve employee on indefinite paid leave receiving a budget that covers virtually all living expenses to quite a reasonable standard. And it's baseline, every citizen eligible, other obligations withstanding. You'd have to really make a mess of your life to not live comfortably. The only downside is, if there's war, I have to give my life for the country. Which, given Finland's history (defensiveness and neutrality), seems like a good deal to me. Most men get actively recalled to military trainings; I've personally been exempt during peacetime. I could indeed mine bitcoins for free. But that'd be a gross misuse of my time and resources. I'd rather create something meaningful than literally waste electricity just to prove that I have it (the idiotic quality of proof-of-work cryptocurrency).
    - passerby1 6y ago

jusssi 6y ago

> Education is free (and mandatory). Yes. > Healthcare is free. Not quite, but close. There's a token payment for using the services. Prescription meds are covered when they go over ~€500/year. Social services will cover for you if you can't pay. > Housing is free. Water is free. Electricity is free. Internet is free. No, unless you have no property (you need to sell or lose everything first) and no income, in which case the social services covers the basic necessities for you: housing, water, electricity, even internet access are considered basic necessities. > Convicted criminals can still vote. All males are drafted into the army. I don't see what either of these has to do with capitalist/socialist.