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> unauthorized Whitehouse tour. This is awful, and I can't imagine the thought process that leads to this kind of rationalization. MANY members of the crowd

> unauthorized Whitehouse tour. This is awful, and I can't imagine the thought process that leads to this kind of rationalization. MANY members of the crowd are known to have been armed. Five people are dead. Congress had to be evacuated. Had an escape route not existed (many nations don't have cold war fortifications in their legislative buildings!) we could very easily have been looking at a hostage situation. This is how real governments fall, in the real world. And even failed coups are often repeated successfully. The Beer Hall Putch was about the same size, equally unsuccessful, and yet...

ganoushoreilly 6y ago
We've have many instances of armed protestors / rioters over the past year. Many where figures of authority were targeted. Where the people burning thing in the hallway of the Portland Mayors house, just being nice or was their goal to burn it down? Were the individuals inciting riots with ACAB and other slogans, followed by aggressive assaults of police and small businesses just innocent aggrevators or was their intention to "burn it all down" as they proclaimed over and over. This issue isn't that this is a dispicable situation, it's that the media is treating it as if it's a bunch of fringe right wing people (and lumping all trump voters in the list) when the same far left extremists were and are still using teh same tactics. Lives have been threatened for the past nine months plus.. and yet that was ok because it fell in line with what one group wanted? It's all insanity on both sides and until people own up to it on the left as well, the country will keep being pushed further. The demonization of anyone not toeing the line of the extreme left these days is CREATING the thing they fear. How many lives were lost last year, innocent lives? How many injuries? All due to the same actions and tactics.
- newacct583 6y ago
  Congress was sacked while the legislators were in session with the VP. BLM burned down a Wendy's. You really don't see why people would react differently to those events?
  - ganoushoreilly 6y ago
    You really don't see that dozens of deaths, 7+ Billion in damage, the attempts to overthrow elected officials as well as security institutions such as police departments in the same light? You're selectively choosing a wendy's to try and draw away from the same exact actions. Guillotines have been present at multiple protests the past year. Breaking of windows of federal, state, and public buildings. Large amounts of citizens storming these same places while staffed. Assaults, shootings, fire bombings, all happened the past year. How is that different? If your response is because x or y felt a specific way.. Then you get it, it's the same reason these dumb asses did what they did. All of them were wrong and you should admonish all of them equally.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      Congress was sacked while the legislators were in session with the VP...
      - ganoushoreilly 6y ago
        Sure, and it's fucking stupid they didn't have appropriate security given the nature of the day. The insurrection didn't start on that day. If the label is being applied, it started when police were assaulted, innocents were maimed and murdered, mass scale breakdowns of security and control were in play, and collectives attempted things as extraneous as declaring parts of the United States an Autonomous zone, a clear act of aggression/sedition.
        FireBeyond 6y ago
        Fucking stupid? It seems at this point to be quite likely deliberate. Multiple requests for aid were refused, or ignored. The security at the Capitol was half the size as it was when a group of army veterans marched for disabled vets rights a few years ago. That's not fucking stupid, that's an entirely deliberate and reasoned choice.
        6y ago
- vel0city 6y ago
  Just a note, some of those charged with arson/destruction of property/other violence which were originally thought to be BLM protesters have actually been far-right extremists looking to incite the race-war. This isn't just some conspiracy theory what-if, these are actual charges against real people who seem to be right-wing domestic terrorists according to the federal justice system. https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/pr/self-described-member-boogaloo-bois-charged-riot https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/pr/self-described-member-boo... http://stmedia.startribune.com/documents/Hunter_complaint_affidavit.pdf http://stmedia.startribune.com/documents/Hunter_complaint_af... A good chunk of those "BLM" protesters actually charged usually aren't necessarily leftists, but often are just anarchists who seem to be taking advantage of the chaos. Hard to be both a radical leftist who wants to have an overbearing regulatory state trying to take away your freedoms and also be an anarchist, those are usually two entirely separate viewpoints. https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-race-and-ethnicity-suburbs-health-racial-injustice-7edf9027af1878283f3818d96c54f748 https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-race-and-ethnicity...
smsm42 6y ago
If you mention the Beer Hall Putsch, let's consider how Weimar Republic actually had fallen. Read about the Reichstag Fire and the Reichstag Fire Decree. It started with a stupid and pointless act of violence - a communist (Marinus van der Lubbe) setting a fire in the Reichstag. But that fire didn't kill Weimar. That has been used by the Nazis to claim the communists are preparing a violent coup (which they in theory might not mind - violent revolution was the part of the Communist theory - but in practice hadn't been preparing any) and prosecute Communist leadership. It wasn't a violent putsch - despite considerable support and frequently using violence as tactics, they never felt strong enough to just take over the government by a violent strike. Instead, they combined occasional violence with massive propaganda, scaring the public about possible communist uprising, and presenting themselves as guardians of order, and slow takeover of government institutions, while suppressing their opposition (especially communists) under the mantle of preserving law and order. That's one of the reasons why they got handed considerable power without having to seize it violently - and were in position to pass such decrees as Reichstag Fire decree and the Enabling Act - that ended the Weimar Republic.
- newacct583 6y ago
  The point was more that the Beer Hall Putch failed, but was "forgiven" in the interests of "unity". Hitler and most of the conspirators were pardoned. The Nazi party ended up being emboldened instead of shunned or prosecuted. And the next time they were smarter about things. This kind of rhetoric minimizing the attack at the capitol seems very much of a piece with the way the Bavarian establishment treated Nazism in the 20's to my eyes.

ganoushoreilly 6y ago

We've have many instances of armed protestors / rioters over the past year. Many where figures of authority were targeted. Where the people burning thing in the hallway of the Portland Mayors house, just being nice or was their goal to burn it down? Were the individuals inciting riots with ACAB and other slogans, followed by aggressive assaults of police and small businesses just innocent aggrevators or was their intention to "burn it all down" as they proclaimed over and over. This issue isn't that this is a dispicable situation, it's that the media is treating it as if it's a bunch of fringe right wing people (and lumping all trump voters in the list) when the same far left extremists were and are still using teh same tactics. Lives have been threatened for the past nine months plus.. and yet that was ok because it fell in line with what one group wanted? It's all insanity on both sides and until people own up to it on the left as well, the country will keep being pushed further. The demonization of anyone not toeing the line of the extreme left these days is CREATING the thing they fear. How many lives were lost last year, innocent lives? How many injuries? All due to the same actions and tactics.

newacct583 6y ago
Congress was sacked while the legislators were in session with the VP. BLM burned down a Wendy's. You really don't see why people would react differently to those events?
- ganoushoreilly 6y ago
  You really don't see that dozens of deaths, 7+ Billion in damage, the attempts to overthrow elected officials as well as security institutions such as police departments in the same light? You're selectively choosing a wendy's to try and draw away from the same exact actions. Guillotines have been present at multiple protests the past year. Breaking of windows of federal, state, and public buildings. Large amounts of citizens storming these same places while staffed. Assaults, shootings, fire bombings, all happened the past year. How is that different? If your response is because x or y felt a specific way.. Then you get it, it's the same reason these dumb asses did what they did. All of them were wrong and you should admonish all of them equally.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    Congress was sacked while the legislators were in session with the VP...
    - ganoushoreilly 6y ago
      Sure, and it's fucking stupid they didn't have appropriate security given the nature of the day. The insurrection didn't start on that day. If the label is being applied, it started when police were assaulted, innocents were maimed and murdered, mass scale breakdowns of security and control were in play, and collectives attempted things as extraneous as declaring parts of the United States an Autonomous zone, a clear act of aggression/sedition.
      - FireBeyond 6y ago
        Fucking stupid? It seems at this point to be quite likely deliberate. Multiple requests for aid were refused, or ignored. The security at the Capitol was half the size as it was when a group of army veterans marched for disabled vets rights a few years ago. That's not fucking stupid, that's an entirely deliberate and reasoned choice.
        6y ago
vel0city 6y ago
Just a note, some of those charged with arson/destruction of property/other violence which were originally thought to be BLM protesters have actually been far-right extremists looking to incite the race-war. This isn't just some conspiracy theory what-if, these are actual charges against real people who seem to be right-wing domestic terrorists according to the federal justice system. https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/pr/self-described-member-boogaloo-bois-charged-riot https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/pr/self-described-member-boo... http://stmedia.startribune.com/documents/Hunter_complaint_affidavit.pdf http://stmedia.startribune.com/documents/Hunter_complaint_af... A good chunk of those "BLM" protesters actually charged usually aren't necessarily leftists, but often are just anarchists who seem to be taking advantage of the chaos. Hard to be both a radical leftist who wants to have an overbearing regulatory state trying to take away your freedoms and also be an anarchist, those are usually two entirely separate viewpoints. https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-race-and-ethnicity-suburbs-health-racial-injustice-7edf9027af1878283f3818d96c54f748 https://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-race-and-ethnicity...

smsm42 6y ago

If you mention the Beer Hall Putsch, let's consider how Weimar Republic actually had fallen. Read about the Reichstag Fire and the Reichstag Fire Decree. It started with a stupid and pointless act of violence - a communist (Marinus van der Lubbe) setting a fire in the Reichstag. But that fire didn't kill Weimar. That has been used by the Nazis to claim the communists are preparing a violent coup (which they in theory might not mind - violent revolution was the part of the Communist theory - but in practice hadn't been preparing any) and prosecute Communist leadership. It wasn't a violent putsch - despite considerable support and frequently using violence as tactics, they never felt strong enough to just take over the government by a violent strike. Instead, they combined occasional violence with massive propaganda, scaring the public about possible communist uprising, and presenting themselves as guardians of order, and slow takeover of government institutions, while suppressing their opposition (especially communists) under the mantle of preserving law and order. That's one of the reasons why they got handed considerable power without having to seize it violently - and were in position to pass such decrees as Reichstag Fire decree and the Enabling Act - that ended the Weimar Republic.

newacct583 6y ago
The point was more that the Beer Hall Putch failed, but was "forgiven" in the interests of "unity". Hitler and most of the conspirators were pardoned. The Nazi party ended up being emboldened instead of shunned or prosecuted. And the next time they were smarter about things. This kind of rhetoric minimizing the attack at the capitol seems very much of a piece with the way the Bavarian establishment treated Nazism in the 20's to my eyes.