4 ms·

He has my empathy. Never had a problem for most of my life, then got sick in a way that I was given hydrocodone for 8 months. I took more than the label said,

He has my empathy. Never had a problem for most of my life, then got sick in a way that I was given hydrocodone for 8 months. I took more than the label said, a lot more, and at some point a switch clicked over in my head. After the hydrocodone was gone, I switched to alcohol only because it was easy to get. I've been sober a while now, but stopping the drinking was MUCH harder than stopping the hydrocodone. Alcohol is a beast once that circuit breaker trips in your head and you start drinking large quantities daily. It's very hard to explain to someone that hasn't gone through it. Suffice it to say that quitting isn't really about willpower.

chillwaves 6y ago
> Suffice it to say that quitting isn't really about willpower. I found this to be my experience as well, which is why I was so interested when I heard about naltrexone therapy. More specifically, a course known as The Sinclair Method. [1] The idea is to use the drug an hour prior to drinking (and only then, so if you abstained from drinking that day, you would abstain from naltrexone -- this is where it differs from standard naltrexone therapy that would have you take it every morning regardless of your plans to drink). Naltrexone blocks endorphins associated with drinking and helps to reprogram your brain to no longer seek that neurochemical response. I found it to be highly successful the first week -- I didn't even want to finish 2 drinks. After the first week, it still worked but not as well. And I also realized that the anticipation of drinking was almost as powerful as drinking itself, in that I would feel a "rush" even on my way to buy alcohol. It took about 6 months of naltrexone therapy to finally quit. The funny part is, during that time and when under emotional distress, sometimes I would drink without the medication but it still seemed effective in that I never quite got the pleasure I used to have. I'm coming up on 3 months sober, but unlike past attempts to quit, I have no urge to fight and no desire to drink again (and I am going to keep it that way). I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice, just my story. The other interesting part to me is how rarely naltrexone is used for problem drinking (vs something like AA, which is faith based in more ways than one), and even more rarely is it deployed the way The Sinclair Method instructs (deliberately, right before drinking). > Over time, your brain learns not to associate alcohol with pleasure, resulting in reduced cravings and improved control over alcohol use. [1] https://www.sinclairmethod.org/what-is-the-sinclair-method-2/ https://www.sinclairmethod.org/what-is-the-sinclair-method-2...
- steve_adams_86 6y ago
  Perhaps the effect of the drug might have carried over to the next day - I’m sure this could be verified, but it’s something I’ve experienced with other drugs. You skip a day, intentionally or accidentally, but your system hasn’t flushed everything out so the drug is still taking some effect.
  - chillwaves 6y ago
    It was actually over a longer period than a day. I would like to think that some part of my brain is no longer associating alcohol with the buzz I used to get. It seems far fetched, but plausible? The other side of it is I definitely would feel the "buzz" of alcohol before I actually drank it, such as when I was walking home from the store carrying booze -- I would feel elated. To be clear, the "buzz" I refer to is straight up pleasure, not intoxication. On naltrexone I felt the intoxication without the pleasure. It made me think, is this what it's like to drink alcohol when you are not an alcoholic? Very easy to moderate in that circumstance.
- perl4ever 6y ago
  It's interesting that (I believe), - bupropion is an antidepressant and an antismoking drug. - naltrexone is an anti-opiate and anti-alcohol drug. - bupropion/naltrexone together is a weight loss drug. After trying bupropion as an antidepressant, I would really like to try adding naltrexone, but my prescriber didn't take me seriously, as I have neither an alcohol nor opiate nor weight problem. I'm fascinated with the idea that when you try to increase a substance in your brain, it "fights back", you get tolerance, the receptors get dulled, and so on, but if you suppress a receptor, then more is produced, which works better in the long run.
  - KMag 6y ago
    > I'm fascinated with the idea that when you try to increase a substance in your brain, it "fights back", Well, it's a truism that mostly-stable systems have at least locally corrective responses to perturbations. Back in High School, I was a bit mystified as to why Le Chatelier's principle should be so nearly universally applicable, until I realized that the sample set is extremely biased... if a chemical system isn't even metastable, it doesn't get much broad attention. Stable or metastable chemical systems must have locally stabilizing responses to change. Even for things like combustion reactions, we mostly study stable flames, except for niche studies. I realized there's a generalization of Le Chatelier's principle that's almost a truism for any system that exhibits something approaching short-term stability or short-term bounded oscillation. If some brain state weren't locally corrective, then it would be a transient brain state, and excluded from the most intuitive notion of normal brain behavior. So, we'd expect that for normal brain behaviors, we'd see corrective responses to change.
voicedYoda 6y ago
Kudos on the quit. After my child passed away, i went through a similar spiral. It took my spouse, our community, and a new life to save me. I'm not great, but doing better
- mahathu 6y ago
  thank you for sharing, and also kudos to you.
- taw2212121 6y ago
  I similarly needed others, nothing I did alone, or any level of negative consequences (some big ones) made a difference.
eshack94 6y ago
I completely agree with your assessment. Alcohol is sneaky and before you know it, an alcohol habit that starts out as a "occasional drink to unwind" after a long, stressful day of work becomes a daily routine or focus of your existence. I never fell into the spiral of alcoholism, but there was a point after college where I realized that I was drinking more than I wanted to for my own personal standards. And I found it was surprisingly more difficult than I initially anticipated to "moderate" the habit. Moderation didn't work for me. I had to make the conscious decision to forcefully flip the switch back off and I made a commitment to never play with that fire again.
loa_in_ 6y ago
I found that alcohol thins out blood, and that's generally a good thing (unless you're bleeding). So along with quitting alcohol you need to quit the good effects of it as well. It's hard to manage your blood thickness when you're in over your head, but not managing it leaves you confused as brain circulation is slightly impaired
- Engineering-MD 6y ago
  Generally unless your at risk of either bleeding or thrombosis/embolism then don’t worry too much about your blood thickness (correct word is coagulability rather than viscosity). It tends to balance and stay In a narrow range in fit and well individuals. I’ve never heard of it impacting on cognition.
- rendall 6y ago
  This is actually a thing for some people, and if that's you, then you absolutely need to see a doctor and describe what's happening. It may be that you over-absorb iron. Someone close to me had this condition and described it as "thick blood". Undiagnosed hemochromatosis He regularly gave blood, which helped shed the iron from his body, but at some point he stopped, and it contributed to a severe cognitive decline. He drank too much, too, which didn't help. If you or someone you know has "thick blood", go to a doctor. Suggest they check for hemochromatosis
  - spacemanmatt 6y ago
    THIS. Hemochromatosis is rare but imminently treatable. And among the few, if not the only disease for which the oldest treatment (bloodletting) remains among the most viable treatments today.
- tapland 6y ago
  Wouldn't children's dosage of aspirin be more manageable? IIRC some older people are recommended to eat that daily (something like 1/4 adult dosage of aspirine).
  - 6y ago
jabberwcky 6y ago
I have heavy boozers on both sides of my bloodline, never expected it would hit me because I was so aware of it, but at some point in my early 30s I realized I was always the one dragging friends to bars, and of course despite a self-imposed rule of no hard booze at home, that only justified continuous drinking of wine and beer. I definitely wouldn't have considered myself an alcoholic, but it had become a significant enough part of my routine that I had increasing difficulty being honest to others about when/how often I'd been drinking. The thing that ultimately snapped me out of it was learning of the association with cancer. I'd still love a drink, much like I'd absolutely murder a cigarette, but in both cases, neither could approach my lips without the word "CANCER" being explicit in mind. Not sure how that happened. Luck? Definitely not complaining, in any case it works.

chillwaves 6y ago

> Suffice it to say that quitting isn't really about willpower. I found this to be my experience as well, which is why I was so interested when I heard about naltrexone therapy. More specifically, a course known as The Sinclair Method. [1] The idea is to use the drug an hour prior to drinking (and only then, so if you abstained from drinking that day, you would abstain from naltrexone -- this is where it differs from standard naltrexone therapy that would have you take it every morning regardless of your plans to drink). Naltrexone blocks endorphins associated with drinking and helps to reprogram your brain to no longer seek that neurochemical response. I found it to be highly successful the first week -- I didn't even want to finish 2 drinks. After the first week, it still worked but not as well. And I also realized that the anticipation of drinking was almost as powerful as drinking itself, in that I would feel a "rush" even on my way to buy alcohol. It took about 6 months of naltrexone therapy to finally quit. The funny part is, during that time and when under emotional distress, sometimes I would drink without the medication but it still seemed effective in that I never quite got the pleasure I used to have. I'm coming up on 3 months sober, but unlike past attempts to quit, I have no urge to fight and no desire to drink again (and I am going to keep it that way). I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice, just my story. The other interesting part to me is how rarely naltrexone is used for problem drinking (vs something like AA, which is faith based in more ways than one), and even more rarely is it deployed the way The Sinclair Method instructs (deliberately, right before drinking). > Over time, your brain learns not to associate alcohol with pleasure, resulting in reduced cravings and improved control over alcohol use. [1] https://www.sinclairmethod.org/what-is-the-sinclair-method-2/ https://www.sinclairmethod.org/what-is-the-sinclair-method-2...

steve_adams_86 6y ago
Perhaps the effect of the drug might have carried over to the next day - I’m sure this could be verified, but it’s something I’ve experienced with other drugs. You skip a day, intentionally or accidentally, but your system hasn’t flushed everything out so the drug is still taking some effect.
- chillwaves 6y ago
  It was actually over a longer period than a day. I would like to think that some part of my brain is no longer associating alcohol with the buzz I used to get. It seems far fetched, but plausible? The other side of it is I definitely would feel the "buzz" of alcohol before I actually drank it, such as when I was walking home from the store carrying booze -- I would feel elated. To be clear, the "buzz" I refer to is straight up pleasure, not intoxication. On naltrexone I felt the intoxication without the pleasure. It made me think, is this what it's like to drink alcohol when you are not an alcoholic? Very easy to moderate in that circumstance.
perl4ever 6y ago
It's interesting that (I believe), - bupropion is an antidepressant and an antismoking drug. - naltrexone is an anti-opiate and anti-alcohol drug. - bupropion/naltrexone together is a weight loss drug. After trying bupropion as an antidepressant, I would really like to try adding naltrexone, but my prescriber didn't take me seriously, as I have neither an alcohol nor opiate nor weight problem. I'm fascinated with the idea that when you try to increase a substance in your brain, it "fights back", you get tolerance, the receptors get dulled, and so on, but if you suppress a receptor, then more is produced, which works better in the long run.
- KMag 6y ago
  > I'm fascinated with the idea that when you try to increase a substance in your brain, it "fights back", Well, it's a truism that mostly-stable systems have at least locally corrective responses to perturbations. Back in High School, I was a bit mystified as to why Le Chatelier's principle should be so nearly universally applicable, until I realized that the sample set is extremely biased... if a chemical system isn't even metastable, it doesn't get much broad attention. Stable or metastable chemical systems must have locally stabilizing responses to change. Even for things like combustion reactions, we mostly study stable flames, except for niche studies. I realized there's a generalization of Le Chatelier's principle that's almost a truism for any system that exhibits something approaching short-term stability or short-term bounded oscillation. If some brain state weren't locally corrective, then it would be a transient brain state, and excluded from the most intuitive notion of normal brain behavior. So, we'd expect that for normal brain behaviors, we'd see corrective responses to change.

voicedYoda 6y ago

Kudos on the quit. After my child passed away, i went through a similar spiral. It took my spouse, our community, and a new life to save me. I'm not great, but doing better

mahathu 6y ago
thank you for sharing, and also kudos to you.
taw2212121 6y ago
I similarly needed others, nothing I did alone, or any level of negative consequences (some big ones) made a difference.

eshack94 6y ago

I completely agree with your assessment. Alcohol is sneaky and before you know it, an alcohol habit that starts out as a "occasional drink to unwind" after a long, stressful day of work becomes a daily routine or focus of your existence. I never fell into the spiral of alcoholism, but there was a point after college where I realized that I was drinking more than I wanted to for my own personal standards. And I found it was surprisingly more difficult than I initially anticipated to "moderate" the habit. Moderation didn't work for me. I had to make the conscious decision to forcefully flip the switch back off and I made a commitment to never play with that fire again.

loa_in_ 6y ago

I found that alcohol thins out blood, and that's generally a good thing (unless you're bleeding). So along with quitting alcohol you need to quit the good effects of it as well. It's hard to manage your blood thickness when you're in over your head, but not managing it leaves you confused as brain circulation is slightly impaired

Engineering-MD 6y ago
Generally unless your at risk of either bleeding or thrombosis/embolism then don’t worry too much about your blood thickness (correct word is coagulability rather than viscosity). It tends to balance and stay In a narrow range in fit and well individuals. I’ve never heard of it impacting on cognition.
rendall 6y ago
This is actually a thing for some people, and if that's you, then you absolutely need to see a doctor and describe what's happening. It may be that you over-absorb iron. Someone close to me had this condition and described it as "thick blood". Undiagnosed hemochromatosis He regularly gave blood, which helped shed the iron from his body, but at some point he stopped, and it contributed to a severe cognitive decline. He drank too much, too, which didn't help. If you or someone you know has "thick blood", go to a doctor. Suggest they check for hemochromatosis
- spacemanmatt 6y ago
  THIS. Hemochromatosis is rare but imminently treatable. And among the few, if not the only disease for which the oldest treatment (bloodletting) remains among the most viable treatments today.
tapland 6y ago
Wouldn't children's dosage of aspirin be more manageable? IIRC some older people are recommended to eat that daily (something like 1/4 adult dosage of aspirine).
- 6y ago

jabberwcky 6y ago

I have heavy boozers on both sides of my bloodline, never expected it would hit me because I was so aware of it, but at some point in my early 30s I realized I was always the one dragging friends to bars, and of course despite a self-imposed rule of no hard booze at home, that only justified continuous drinking of wine and beer. I definitely wouldn't have considered myself an alcoholic, but it had become a significant enough part of my routine that I had increasing difficulty being honest to others about when/how often I'd been drinking. The thing that ultimately snapped me out of it was learning of the association with cancer. I'd still love a drink, much like I'd absolutely murder a cigarette, but in both cases, neither could approach my lips without the word "CANCER" being explicit in mind. Not sure how that happened. Luck? Definitely not complaining, in any case it works.