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> 'now you have two Presidents' If you're going to imagine Constitutional crises, you should understand the rules we're working within. Check out the first sec

> 'now you have two Presidents' If you're going to imagine Constitutional crises, you should understand the rules we're working within. Check out the first section of the 20th Amendment and please report back how there could be two Presidents. Narrator: Turns out the system isn't that fragile. It continues on regardless because there are contingencies built in and improved upon over the years.

jariel 6y ago
Obviously there wouldn't be '2 Presidents' by any reasonable application of a set of very clear rules. But those rules are not clear. One camp would believe, that Biden won a fair election, as stated by the DOJ, Homeland Security and the State Officals (it's their perogative), and that the preformative process of validating the results in Congress wasn't entirely necessary. The other claim would claim with 'the election was disputed' and that the failure to confirm the results in Congress was a 'fully legal act' that abnegates the possibility of Biden from taking office. AKA '2 Presidents' by virtue of you you interpret the outcomes of those events. The 20th Amendment does not help us clarify that situation. In these contentious scenarios, the credibility of institutions is stretched and populism starts to take hold. It would be major crisis. This is why institutions started to rally around 'one camp' as to facilitate a proper transfer of power. Since much of this debacle was based off of misinformation, it speaks directly to issues with 'truth' and 'freedom of expression'. I'm not sure if there is an obvious answer on the table, but there are definitely problems.
- caseysoftware 6y ago
  Thanks for clarifying. I think your example is perfect: Your conspiracy theory is not based facts, law, or well-established interpretations of either and yet you're fully bought in and sharing it. I see how that could be dangerous, but I think silencing you would be worse for you personally and society as a whole. Just don't threaten violence and we're good.
  - jariel 6y ago
    Answer the question: 'Who would be President on Jan 20?' - if the vote to approve the electoral results on Jan 6th were not completed - or - if the results provided by the states were 'rejected' by a congressional vote. ? Bonus points if you can tell us how the 20th Amendment clarifies that for us. Also, irrespective of what the legal outcome might be, what would most US citizens actually believe? Would the losing faction have enough faith in the institutional decisions such that they do not revolt? After all, we just saw a fair election in which ~30% of the electorate 'do not believe' the results. You do see the 20 000 soldiers out there for inauguration? Why do you suppose they are there? Finally - here is some background material to help figure out who wins in the end [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempt...
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > Who would be President on Jan 20?' - if the vote to approve the electoral results on Jan 6th were not completed [...] Bonus points if you can tell us how the 20th Amendment clarifies that for us. Nancy Pelosi. Amendment XX: “The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January [...] If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified." 3 USC § 19(a)(1): “If, by reason of death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify, there is neither a President nor Vice President to discharge the powers and duties of the office of President, then the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall, upon his resignation as Speaker and as Representative in Congress, act as President.”
      - caseysoftware 6y ago
        ^ Exactly. There are lots of unclear and open to interpretation areas of law but this isn't one of them. We have a well-established process with clear steps which apply in good times and bad times, whether any of the players like them at the moment or not. It's not tough but people have to discard their conspiracy theories in favor of facts, laws, and reason.

jariel 6y ago

Obviously there wouldn't be '2 Presidents' by any reasonable application of a set of very clear rules. But those rules are not clear. One camp would believe, that Biden won a fair election, as stated by the DOJ, Homeland Security and the State Officals (it's their perogative), and that the preformative process of validating the results in Congress wasn't entirely necessary. The other claim would claim with 'the election was disputed' and that the failure to confirm the results in Congress was a 'fully legal act' that abnegates the possibility of Biden from taking office. AKA '2 Presidents' by virtue of you you interpret the outcomes of those events. The 20th Amendment does not help us clarify that situation. In these contentious scenarios, the credibility of institutions is stretched and populism starts to take hold. It would be major crisis. This is why institutions started to rally around 'one camp' as to facilitate a proper transfer of power. Since much of this debacle was based off of misinformation, it speaks directly to issues with 'truth' and 'freedom of expression'. I'm not sure if there is an obvious answer on the table, but there are definitely problems.

caseysoftware 6y ago
Thanks for clarifying. I think your example is perfect: Your conspiracy theory is not based facts, law, or well-established interpretations of either and yet you're fully bought in and sharing it. I see how that could be dangerous, but I think silencing you would be worse for you personally and society as a whole. Just don't threaten violence and we're good.
- jariel 6y ago
  Answer the question: 'Who would be President on Jan 20?' - if the vote to approve the electoral results on Jan 6th were not completed - or - if the results provided by the states were 'rejected' by a congressional vote. ? Bonus points if you can tell us how the 20th Amendment clarifies that for us. Also, irrespective of what the legal outcome might be, what would most US citizens actually believe? Would the losing faction have enough faith in the institutional decisions such that they do not revolt? After all, we just saw a fair election in which ~30% of the electorate 'do not believe' the results. You do see the 20 000 soldiers out there for inauguration? Why do you suppose they are there? Finally - here is some background material to help figure out who wins in the end [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempt...
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Who would be President on Jan 20?' - if the vote to approve the electoral results on Jan 6th were not completed [...] Bonus points if you can tell us how the 20th Amendment clarifies that for us. Nancy Pelosi. Amendment XX: “The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January [...] If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified." 3 USC § 19(a)(1): “If, by reason of death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify, there is neither a President nor Vice President to discharge the powers and duties of the office of President, then the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall, upon his resignation as Speaker and as Representative in Congress, act as President.”
    - caseysoftware 6y ago
      ^ Exactly. There are lots of unclear and open to interpretation areas of law but this isn't one of them. We have a well-established process with clear steps which apply in good times and bad times, whether any of the players like them at the moment or not. It's not tough but people have to discard their conspiracy theories in favor of facts, laws, and reason.