5 ms·

And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast fr

And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast from coast to coast by every credible news media organisation in existence. The same organisations now being lauded as the bearers of ultimate truth. When the next set of lies is rolled out to land us in another unending conflict, I would quite like the internet to be a place where information can freely flow. My fear of governments is far greater than my fear of kooky people on the internet.

ardy42 6y ago
> And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast from coast to coast by every credible news media organisation in existence. The same organisations now being lauded as the bearers of ultimate truth. What "lie" led us into the Gulf War? Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? And what about the stuff about Iraqi WMDs? I'm obviously not claiming that lying was invented in the last few years, so pointing out some lie that gained traction in the past doesn't really challenge anything I said. > When the next set of lies is rolled out to land us in another unending conflict, I would quite like the internet to be a place where information can freely flow. My fear of governments is far greater than my fear of kooky people on the internet. There's a good chance that the kind of freely flowing information I'm talking about will likely just lead you to a different lie. If the truth (or interpretations approaching the truth) is a needle in a haystack, it's unlikely that many people will actually ever find it. That's a problem.
- read_if_gay_ 6y ago
  You did claim > The real problem of the last few years is that really blatant lies have been remarkably successful in the "marketplace of ideas" and quite hard to effectively argue against so I think it's fair to point out that this is not in fact a new problem, and that private companies probably aren't going to solve it.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    > so I think it's fair to point out that this is not in fact a new problem, and that private companies probably aren't going to solve it. The new problem is is not the successful spread of lies, but the frequent successful spread of lies at massive scale that fall apart at the slightest inspection. Basically: bonkers conspiracy theories becoming mainstream consensus in large segments of the population.
    - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
      > bonkers conspiracy theories becoming mainstream consensus in large segments of the population. I think the only new thing is "bonkers conspiracy theories", when beforehand it was more like "state sanctioned lies". Pick your poison, I guess?
- noAnswer 6y ago
  > What "lie" led us into the Gulf War? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
- honest_guy 6y ago
  > Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? I am claiming that the Nayirah testimony helped manufacture consent for US military involvement. > I'm obviously not claiming that lying was invented in the last few years, so pointing out some lie that gained traction in the past doesn't really challenge anything I said. You claimed that the problem of the last few years was blatant lies gaining traction in the marketplace of ideas. I am pointing out that lies have forever gained traction in the marketplace of ideas, while also being co-signed by authoritative news sources and politicians. > If the truth (or interpretations approaching the truth) is a needle in a haystack, it's unlikely that many people will actually ever find it. That's a problem. I agree, but I don't believe that restricting speech or massively censoring information is the correct solution. Or a solution at all.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    >> Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? > I am claiming that the Nayirah testimony helped manufacture consent for US military involvement. Oh, I see. I think the difference is that wasn't really the casus belli for the Gulf War (the Wikipedia entry doesn't mention Nayirah at all, for instance), while the WMD lie was the literal casus belli for the Iraq War. > You claimed that the problem of the last few years was blatant lies gaining traction in the marketplace of ideas. I am pointing out that lies have forever gained traction in the marketplace of ideas, while also being co-signed by authoritative news sources and politicians. I think we're using different definitions of "blatant." I'm talking about stuff like QAnon or Stop the Steal. In comparison, the lies you're talking about are far more credible and believable.
- GoblinSlayer 6y ago
  Truth will be unknown in any case, but free speech can at least expose lies as such, which can't be done in controlled propaganda.

ardy42 6y ago

> And what of the lies which led us into the Gulf War and the Iraq War? Hundreds of thousands of people are dead because of those lies, and they were broadcast from coast to coast by every credible news media organisation in existence. The same organisations now being lauded as the bearers of ultimate truth. What "lie" led us into the Gulf War? Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? And what about the stuff about Iraqi WMDs? I'm obviously not claiming that lying was invented in the last few years, so pointing out some lie that gained traction in the past doesn't really challenge anything I said. > When the next set of lies is rolled out to land us in another unending conflict, I would quite like the internet to be a place where information can freely flow. My fear of governments is far greater than my fear of kooky people on the internet. There's a good chance that the kind of freely flowing information I'm talking about will likely just lead you to a different lie. If the truth (or interpretations approaching the truth) is a needle in a haystack, it's unlikely that many people will actually ever find it. That's a problem.

read_if_gay_ 6y ago
You did claim > The real problem of the last few years is that really blatant lies have been remarkably successful in the "marketplace of ideas" and quite hard to effectively argue against so I think it's fair to point out that this is not in fact a new problem, and that private companies probably aren't going to solve it.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > so I think it's fair to point out that this is not in fact a new problem, and that private companies probably aren't going to solve it. The new problem is is not the successful spread of lies, but the frequent successful spread of lies at massive scale that fall apart at the slightest inspection. Basically: bonkers conspiracy theories becoming mainstream consensus in large segments of the population.
  - read_if_gay_ 6y ago
    > bonkers conspiracy theories becoming mainstream consensus in large segments of the population. I think the only new thing is "bonkers conspiracy theories", when beforehand it was more like "state sanctioned lies". Pick your poison, I guess?
noAnswer 6y ago
> What "lie" led us into the Gulf War? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony
honest_guy 6y ago
> Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? I am claiming that the Nayirah testimony helped manufacture consent for US military involvement. > I'm obviously not claiming that lying was invented in the last few years, so pointing out some lie that gained traction in the past doesn't really challenge anything I said. You claimed that the problem of the last few years was blatant lies gaining traction in the marketplace of ideas. I am pointing out that lies have forever gained traction in the marketplace of ideas, while also being co-signed by authoritative news sources and politicians. > If the truth (or interpretations approaching the truth) is a needle in a haystack, it's unlikely that many people will actually ever find it. That's a problem. I agree, but I don't believe that restricting speech or massively censoring information is the correct solution. Or a solution at all.
- ardy42 6y ago
  >> Are you claiming that Iraq did not in fact invade and conquer Kuwait? > I am claiming that the Nayirah testimony helped manufacture consent for US military involvement. Oh, I see. I think the difference is that wasn't really the casus belli for the Gulf War (the Wikipedia entry doesn't mention Nayirah at all, for instance), while the WMD lie was the literal casus belli for the Iraq War. > You claimed that the problem of the last few years was blatant lies gaining traction in the marketplace of ideas. I am pointing out that lies have forever gained traction in the marketplace of ideas, while also being co-signed by authoritative news sources and politicians. I think we're using different definitions of "blatant." I'm talking about stuff like QAnon or Stop the Steal. In comparison, the lies you're talking about are far more credible and believable.
GoblinSlayer 6y ago
Truth will be unknown in any case, but free speech can at least expose lies as such, which can't be done in controlled propaganda.