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Mechanical engineer who worked as an energy engineer before getting his CS degree speaking here, but I'd tentatively say yes. I don't have a whole lot of experi

Mechanical engineer who worked as an energy engineer before getting his CS degree speaking here, but I'd tentatively say yes. I don't have a whole lot of experience using my CS degree yet but the main difference between a software developer/SWE/programmer and a hacker is the amount of paranoia that goes into making something. If you are a good software engineer, you've tested and verified everything and you've made sure there little to no risk to your end user. If you don't you're a hacker. Not to look down on hackers, but the main reason I think this whole question exists in the computer side of the world but doesn't exist for mechanical engineers is that there isn't the hacker/engineer dichotomy in "traditional" engineering. Maybe makers vs mechanical engineers counts, but almost all of the makers I knew were employed as engineers. A good software engineer/developer and a good "traditional" engineer take the time to think through every edge case, every corner case, and any other case that might cause problems. Makers/Hackers just get to the first thing that works, damn the consequences for anyone else. Which is fine because often the only people using their product is themselves. Just my $0.02

robocat 6y ago
I suggest you avoid using the word hacker, as to me you are using it in a negative sense, while missing that a good hack can be excellent engineering. “Hacker” contains a wild variety of behaviour and skills. The concept is too amorphous and people have wildly disagreeing meanings associated with the word (the meaning is very audience and context sensitive) so it is difficult to use the word as a proxy for the sense you wanted to convey, in a discussion with a wide audience. Edit: I am suggesting hacker is a loaded/confusing word that is definitely not the opposite of engineer. Good engineering and good hacking are compatible - the right temporary fix can be excellent engineering. Cowboy (≈hacker) mechanical and civil engineers exist, so the concept of hacking is not incompatible with engineer. Using the word hacker intrinsically includes the concept of software, so contrasting hacking and engineering is not a tidy argument.
- Thorentis 6y ago
  I would go out on a limb and say the negative connotations are correct in most cases and usages. E.g. "I'm just going to hack something together." (usually means do substandard work but with the benefit of speed) "It works, but it's a nasty hack." (a workaround that might be clever, but isn't necessarily safe, testable, or repeatable). A "hacker" in the sense that GP is using it means somebody who's default method of working involves doing the above on a regular basis.
- Groxx 6y ago
  tbh I think it's fine, this site is literally named "hacker news". they're using the term in roughly the same way.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- totemandtoken 6y ago
  I didn't mean "hacker" as opposing engineering. Think of it this way - a hacker will give you an MVP. An engineer will take an MVP and turn it into true-blue infrastructure or if that can't be done, give you a technical analysis detailing why not. In some (many) cases, a person will need to do both and they both require their own skill sets. I agree they aren't mutually exclusive, but I never wrote what I wrote to imply that. See also (caveat: I don't wholly agree with this): http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html
  - robocat 6y ago
    > I didn't mean "hacker" as opposing engineering. Your sentence “there isn't the hacker/engineer dichotomy in ‘traditional’ engineering” can be paraphrased as: there is a dichotomy between a hacker and a software engineer... aaarrrgh!! I am saying I have trouble following your comment, and your reply is confusing me further. I just wanted to say that using “hacker” as part of a comment will often cause confusion. Disclaimer: I studied as an electronic engineer, and I consider myself a software engineer (I engineer my software carefully to work reliably as designed: although I can admire a good spaghetti cowboy solution if it meets some commercial or personal goal!) Edit: “I don't wholly agree with this: http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html ,” really displays that the meaning of hacker is a variable.
tobmlt 6y ago
Computational software engineer with physical engineering qualifications here -- we better be engineers on both sides of the divide! I suppose I don't really count though, as far as the question goes, since the software I write is used for doing physical engineering, and is a tiny fraction of software development, etc.
- totemandtoken 6y ago
  Of course you count. And yes, good engineering should always be admired and sought after. But hacking and making has its uses and charms.
deleted 6y ago
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naveen99 6y ago
Please see jargon file: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/ http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/
weinzierl 6y ago
> "[...] that there isn't the hacker/engineer dichotomy in "traditional" engineering." I'm sure there are as many "engineering hackers" out there as there are computer hackers, if not more. They just go by many names: DIYer, tinkerer, hobby mechanic, electronics enthusiast...
- totemandtoken 6y ago
  Yeah, there's definitely a wide spectrum. I just kind of lump them in as makers. Most of the people I've met at my local makerspace fit this bill - they're just tinkering with something or taking up a hobby. But as I mentioned, most of these people I've met are/were engineers professionally. I think it's just that on their personal projects they were more relaxed about "process" than they would be at work. When I was in doing my Engineering degree in college, one of my professors once tried to make a spectrum of technical ability. One the low end he put "tinkerers" and on the high end he put "engineers." I think that's where a lot of my perceptions of technical ability are coming from. Like I said, it's just my opinion
Antoninus 6y ago
I agree, the overlapping difference in quality software production is diligent security and testing.

robocat 6y ago

I suggest you avoid using the word hacker, as to me you are using it in a negative sense, while missing that a good hack can be excellent engineering. “Hacker” contains a wild variety of behaviour and skills. The concept is too amorphous and people have wildly disagreeing meanings associated with the word (the meaning is very audience and context sensitive) so it is difficult to use the word as a proxy for the sense you wanted to convey, in a discussion with a wide audience. Edit: I am suggesting hacker is a loaded/confusing word that is definitely not the opposite of engineer. Good engineering and good hacking are compatible - the right temporary fix can be excellent engineering. Cowboy (≈hacker) mechanical and civil engineers exist, so the concept of hacking is not incompatible with engineer. Using the word hacker intrinsically includes the concept of software, so contrasting hacking and engineering is not a tidy argument.

Thorentis 6y ago
I would go out on a limb and say the negative connotations are correct in most cases and usages. E.g. "I'm just going to hack something together." (usually means do substandard work but with the benefit of speed) "It works, but it's a nasty hack." (a workaround that might be clever, but isn't necessarily safe, testable, or repeatable). A "hacker" in the sense that GP is using it means somebody who's default method of working involves doing the above on a regular basis.
Groxx 6y ago
tbh I think it's fine, this site is literally named "hacker news". they're using the term in roughly the same way.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
totemandtoken 6y ago
I didn't mean "hacker" as opposing engineering. Think of it this way - a hacker will give you an MVP. An engineer will take an MVP and turn it into true-blue infrastructure or if that can't be done, give you a technical analysis detailing why not. In some (many) cases, a person will need to do both and they both require their own skill sets. I agree they aren't mutually exclusive, but I never wrote what I wrote to imply that. See also (caveat: I don't wholly agree with this): http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html
- robocat 6y ago
  > I didn't mean "hacker" as opposing engineering. Your sentence “there isn't the hacker/engineer dichotomy in ‘traditional’ engineering” can be paraphrased as: there is a dichotomy between a hacker and a software engineer... aaarrrgh!! I am saying I have trouble following your comment, and your reply is confusing me further. I just wanted to say that using “hacker” as part of a comment will often cause confusion. Disclaimer: I studied as an electronic engineer, and I consider myself a software engineer (I engineer my software carefully to work reliably as designed: although I can admire a good spaghetti cowboy solution if it meets some commercial or personal goal!) Edit: “I don't wholly agree with this: http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html ,” really displays that the meaning of hacker is a variable.

tobmlt 6y ago

Computational software engineer with physical engineering qualifications here -- we better be engineers on both sides of the divide! I suppose I don't really count though, as far as the question goes, since the software I write is used for doing physical engineering, and is a tiny fraction of software development, etc.

totemandtoken 6y ago
Of course you count. And yes, good engineering should always be admired and sought after. But hacking and making has its uses and charms.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

naveen99 6y ago

Please see jargon file: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/ http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/

weinzierl 6y ago

> "[...] that there isn't the hacker/engineer dichotomy in "traditional" engineering." I'm sure there are as many "engineering hackers" out there as there are computer hackers, if not more. They just go by many names: DIYer, tinkerer, hobby mechanic, electronics enthusiast...

totemandtoken 6y ago
Yeah, there's definitely a wide spectrum. I just kind of lump them in as makers. Most of the people I've met at my local makerspace fit this bill - they're just tinkering with something or taking up a hobby. But as I mentioned, most of these people I've met are/were engineers professionally. I think it's just that on their personal projects they were more relaxed about "process" than they would be at work. When I was in doing my Engineering degree in college, one of my professors once tried to make a spectrum of technical ability. One the low end he put "tinkerers" and on the high end he put "engineers." I think that's where a lot of my perceptions of technical ability are coming from. Like I said, it's just my opinion

Antoninus 6y ago

I agree, the overlapping difference in quality software production is diligent security and testing.