4 ms·

Based on that, would you also say that American's don't have a love affair with firearms?

by floxy 6y ago

eesmith 6y ago
Are you changing the topic because you can't defend your claim that Americans cherish the idea of free speech? Why do and/or have so many people oppose free speech like advocating for socialism, burning a US flag in protest, or kneeling for the anthem?
- floxy 6y ago
  I was bringing that point, because although there are some gun laws, just like there have been some noxious speech laws, I'd be hard pressed to say that American's don't love guns. I guess I don't know how to reconcile things like: "73% say freedom of speech worth dying for": https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/august_2017/73_say_freedom_of_speech_worth_dying_for https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/ge... ...and... "Majority of Americans think the first amendment goes too far" https://campaignforfreespeech.org/free-speech-under-dire-threat-polling-finds/ https://campaignforfreespeech.org/free-speech-under-dire-thr... ...could be that I'm getting old, and that we've failed to pass along the free speech tradition to younger generations. "For instance, 40% of U.S. Millennials think the government should be able to prevent people from making statements that are offensive to minority groups, compared with 27% of those in Generation X, 24% of Baby Boomers, and just 12% of Silent Generation Americans." https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/12/americans-more-tolerant-of-offensive-speech-than-others-in-the-world/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/12/americans-m...
  - eesmith 6y ago
    I'm going to ignore your guns tangent for lack of relevance. > don't know how to reconcile Easy. Polls are easy to slant, people will say things they believe, but not necessarily will act on, most people don't know what "freedom of speech" means, and the results of a poll may be open to multiple even conflicting interpretations. Place little faith in polls. Certainly place less faith in polls than in actions - and there are plenty of actions which show how Americans don't "cherish" free speech in a notably meaningful way. "we've failed to pass along the free speech tradition to younger generations." You have yet to show that there is a notable free speech tradition beyond judicial interpretations of the First Amendment. Interpretations which have changed over time depending on who's in the Supreme Court. Again, how did all of those anti-free-speech laws and attitudes I mentioned get passed if that tradition was once cherished so highly? I'll add to my previous examples - why was swearing in public illegal in a culture which cherishes free speech? As https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/obscene.html https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/obscene.html points out, "Material or expression deemed obscene by the court is not protected by the free speech guarantee of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution." Which historically has prevented not just swearing and pornography but also materials on birth control from being sent in the mail. As I pointed out. > think the government should be able to prevent people from making statements Go back to the 1950s, deep into the Jim Crow era, and back when you seem to think there was a golden era of faith in free speech. Now, walk around Mississippi holding a sign which says "Equality for blacks" on one side and "Repeal miscegenation laws" on the back. Bonus points if you're Black. Do you think your free speech rights would have been upheld for long by the law or by the people? Those Silent Generation Americans were brought up in the Jim Crow era when state-mandated racism was everywhere, and in a horribly racist culture which treated that racism as the societal norm and aspiration. Just how many of those Silent Generation Americans object to that statement not because of their differing views of free speech but because they still believe that racism isn't that big of a deal? Maybe Millennials think extreme racial bigotry should be included in the same obscene language exception of the American free speech tradition that Silent Generation Americans did for other topics?

Based on that, would you also say that American's don't have a love affair with firearms?

by floxy 6y ago

Based on that, would you also say that American's don't have a love affair with firearms?

Are you changing the topic because you can't defend your claim that Americans cherish the idea of free speech? Why do and/or have so many people oppose free speech like advocating for socialism, burning a US flag in protest, or kneeling for the anthem?

floxy 6y ago
I was bringing that point, because although there are some gun laws, just like there have been some noxious speech laws, I'd be hard pressed to say that American's don't love guns. I guess I don't know how to reconcile things like: "73% say freedom of speech worth dying for": https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/august_2017/73_say_freedom_of_speech_worth_dying_for https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/ge... ...and... "Majority of Americans think the first amendment goes too far" https://campaignforfreespeech.org/free-speech-under-dire-threat-polling-finds/ https://campaignforfreespeech.org/free-speech-under-dire-thr... ...could be that I'm getting old, and that we've failed to pass along the free speech tradition to younger generations. "For instance, 40% of U.S. Millennials think the government should be able to prevent people from making statements that are offensive to minority groups, compared with 27% of those in Generation X, 24% of Baby Boomers, and just 12% of Silent Generation Americans." https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/12/americans-more-tolerant-of-offensive-speech-than-others-in-the-world/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/12/americans-m...
- eesmith 6y ago
  I'm going to ignore your guns tangent for lack of relevance. > don't know how to reconcile Easy. Polls are easy to slant, people will say things they believe, but not necessarily will act on, most people don't know what "freedom of speech" means, and the results of a poll may be open to multiple even conflicting interpretations. Place little faith in polls. Certainly place less faith in polls than in actions - and there are plenty of actions which show how Americans don't "cherish" free speech in a notably meaningful way. "we've failed to pass along the free speech tradition to younger generations." You have yet to show that there is a notable free speech tradition beyond judicial interpretations of the First Amendment. Interpretations which have changed over time depending on who's in the Supreme Court. Again, how did all of those anti-free-speech laws and attitudes I mentioned get passed if that tradition was once cherished so highly? I'll add to my previous examples - why was swearing in public illegal in a culture which cherishes free speech? As https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/obscene.html https://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/obscene.html points out, "Material or expression deemed obscene by the court is not protected by the free speech guarantee of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution." Which historically has prevented not just swearing and pornography but also materials on birth control from being sent in the mail. As I pointed out. > think the government should be able to prevent people from making statements Go back to the 1950s, deep into the Jim Crow era, and back when you seem to think there was a golden era of faith in free speech. Now, walk around Mississippi holding a sign which says "Equality for blacks" on one side and "Repeal miscegenation laws" on the back. Bonus points if you're Black. Do you think your free speech rights would have been upheld for long by the law or by the people? Those Silent Generation Americans were brought up in the Jim Crow era when state-mandated racism was everywhere, and in a horribly racist culture which treated that racism as the societal norm and aspiration. Just how many of those Silent Generation Americans object to that statement not because of their differing views of free speech but because they still believe that racism isn't that big of a deal? Maybe Millennials think extreme racial bigotry should be included in the same obscene language exception of the American free speech tradition that Silent Generation Americans did for other topics?