4 ms·

// Having the freedom from health care costs is more freedom for more people than the "freedom" to not pay health insurance or taxes to cover it. This is not h

// Having the freedom from health care costs is more freedom for more people than the "freedom" to not pay health insurance or taxes to cover it. This is not how freedom works. Your argument is akin to saying "freedom from hearing uncomfortable opinions" benefits more people than "freedom of expression" does. On the broader level, I got to experience healthcare in the US both as a broke-ass immigrant child and as a working adult. It ranged from good to amazing in terms of availability of appointments, treatments, quality and comfort. Night and day beyond what I experienced in the USSR as a kid. So while people are shitting on the system we have, many people find it excellent and amazing and we like the freedom to continue enjoying it.

Trill-I-Am 6y ago
Would the general public of other developed nations be happier if their healthcare systems were more like the US's?
- LouisSayers 6y ago
  Haha nope, ya’ll be crazy
- dghlsakjg 6y ago
  I've lived in the US, and now live in Canada. Despite right-wing propaganda that we're all flocking to the states for care (never met a single person who has even considered that), or that we're all dying on years long wait lists (there is an element of truth to that, but it's a triage system. So cancer patients get priority for surgery before the skier who blew his ACL). I still have yet to meet a single person who doesn't think the US system is batshit crazy. Canadians recognize that their system has problems, and can be improved (which is true of ANY complex system). But they also don't think that the US system is functional or desirable. I know that the nearest border crossing to me regularly has ambulances waiting for people that preferred to travel sick or injured than seek healthcare in the US. In other words, people literally flee the country to avoid being treated in the US.
  - pvaldes 6y ago
    Is curious, but I had heard exactly the same advice before. In case of a minor accident or health issue as tourist in US, try to leave the country ASAP unless you have a solid travel insurance. In any case you will be not allowed to fly with a fracture (if I'm not wrong).
- pvaldes 6y ago
  I doubt it. In any case we have public and private hospitals. Paying an insurance for assuring a "premium" service with better rooms or faster treatments (closer to the US system) is also an option.
bcrosby95 6y ago
My experience as a child was great. As a working adult I spend hours fighting with insurance, hospitals, and doctors to get my bills properly covered. It feels like a bunch of wolves arguing over whose gonna eat the sheep (me). For this privilege I get to pay insurance a minor fee of 3k/month for my family of 5.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  There definitely had been a few snags with insurance that we had to work through - not claiming it's perfect. However I recall the night my son was born - the facilities, staff and resources of the hospital were unmatched - the mother and baby would not have the same experience anywhere else in the world. My wife works in the ER - they constantly use procedures and deploy resources in ways that would be considered impractical elsewhere in the world. For example: an 65+ year-old patient comes in with a specific complaint. It could be cause A or the more rare but serious cause B. It takes imaging to determine whether it's A or B. Elsewhere in the world, they just assume it's A as the patient is "old" because it's financially impractical to test for B. My wife on the other had has no constraints from ordering the imaging test even though 9/10 times it's "wasted" as it just confirms A. But the other 10% of the time, it saves the life. We make a different tradeoff in the US, some of us prefer this trade off.
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    > For example: an 65+ year-old patient comes in with a specific complaint. It could be cause A or the more rare but serious cause B. It takes imaging to determine whether it's A or B. Elsewhere in the world, they just assume it's A as the patient is "old" because it's financially impractical to test for B. My wife on the other had has no constraints from ordering the imaging test even though 9/10 times it's not needed. But the other 10% of the time, it saves the life. This just plain isn't true in general. I grew up in the US with probably the best insurance of anyone I've ever known. I've also lived in Sweden with the state-run insurance (without any private addition). I've had great care in the US. I've had great care in Sweden. In fact, my care in Sweden has honestly probably been better in my cases including where I had overuse injury to my knee due to sports where they really could just say "well quit running so much and let your body rest and leave the healthcare system to those not actively inducing their own injury", but they did not. Fast MRIs, fast diagnosis, fast help, fast everything. I understand this is entirely anecdotal, but the fact is there are many much cheaper systems out there run by governments that actually function _better_ than the US system even for those in the US with good insurance.
throwaway4220 6y ago
YMMV (as I'm sure the below comments will show you) on the efficacy of the US healthcare system. My experience ranged from 1/10 (like denying emergency care until I fought for it) to 10/10 (same-day treatment after diagnosis). Even from the supply side, I have little power on how to help even my own patients navigate the system unless it's an urgent/emergent need. It is important to hear the system is working well for some; we should focus on improving it for more people.
CoolGuySteve 6y ago
That may be true but the USSR is a collapsed state, we should be comparing wealthy countries. According to this the US is mostly in the high top 10 for outcomes in cancer and cardiovascular disease treatment outcomes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare#Outcome_of_cardiovascular_disease_care https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_o... But the US spends more than double the OECD average per capita to achieve those marginal gains: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/OECD_health_expenditure_per_capita_by_country.svg/1920px-OECD_health_expenditure_per_capita_by_country.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/OE... There's an argument to be made that the cost overruns are paying for better outcomes, or maybe the outcomes have some sample bias due to Americans being less healthy, or sicker people are seeking treatment in the US. But on the other hand, the gains are so marginal that those costs might also be due to significant corruption and regulatory capture.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  I didn't make this clear - I agree with you about the USSR, but the point I meant to make is that on metrics like cost and availability of care, it would look "better" than the US.
  - stjohnswarts 6y ago
    No one who is legit just compares cost and availability they are going to also include the health levels of the nation, time to actually getting an appointment, time to get a surgery for a condition, etc. You can't just pick out two variables and say "see I'm right!" . There are a ton of European health markets that are superior to the US market when comparing multiple variables. We need to copy them or do something very similar rather than being stubborn assholes and think everything has to be home grown.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
You're being single minded here. You should compare it to what is available in Europe, Cuba, Canada, etc not what's going on in Russia. We want everyone to have good health care, not just people in silicon valley and the tech industry who by and large to get good insurance.

Trill-I-Am 6y ago

Would the general public of other developed nations be happier if their healthcare systems were more like the US's?

LouisSayers 6y ago
Haha nope, ya’ll be crazy
dghlsakjg 6y ago
I've lived in the US, and now live in Canada. Despite right-wing propaganda that we're all flocking to the states for care (never met a single person who has even considered that), or that we're all dying on years long wait lists (there is an element of truth to that, but it's a triage system. So cancer patients get priority for surgery before the skier who blew his ACL). I still have yet to meet a single person who doesn't think the US system is batshit crazy. Canadians recognize that their system has problems, and can be improved (which is true of ANY complex system). But they also don't think that the US system is functional or desirable. I know that the nearest border crossing to me regularly has ambulances waiting for people that preferred to travel sick or injured than seek healthcare in the US. In other words, people literally flee the country to avoid being treated in the US.
- pvaldes 6y ago
  Is curious, but I had heard exactly the same advice before. In case of a minor accident or health issue as tourist in US, try to leave the country ASAP unless you have a solid travel insurance. In any case you will be not allowed to fly with a fracture (if I'm not wrong).
pvaldes 6y ago
I doubt it. In any case we have public and private hospitals. Paying an insurance for assuring a "premium" service with better rooms or faster treatments (closer to the US system) is also an option.

bcrosby95 6y ago

My experience as a child was great. As a working adult I spend hours fighting with insurance, hospitals, and doctors to get my bills properly covered. It feels like a bunch of wolves arguing over whose gonna eat the sheep (me). For this privilege I get to pay insurance a minor fee of 3k/month for my family of 5.

xyzelement 6y ago
There definitely had been a few snags with insurance that we had to work through - not claiming it's perfect. However I recall the night my son was born - the facilities, staff and resources of the hospital were unmatched - the mother and baby would not have the same experience anywhere else in the world. My wife works in the ER - they constantly use procedures and deploy resources in ways that would be considered impractical elsewhere in the world. For example: an 65+ year-old patient comes in with a specific complaint. It could be cause A or the more rare but serious cause B. It takes imaging to determine whether it's A or B. Elsewhere in the world, they just assume it's A as the patient is "old" because it's financially impractical to test for B. My wife on the other had has no constraints from ordering the imaging test even though 9/10 times it's "wasted" as it just confirms A. But the other 10% of the time, it saves the life. We make a different tradeoff in the US, some of us prefer this trade off.
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  > For example: an 65+ year-old patient comes in with a specific complaint. It could be cause A or the more rare but serious cause B. It takes imaging to determine whether it's A or B. Elsewhere in the world, they just assume it's A as the patient is "old" because it's financially impractical to test for B. My wife on the other had has no constraints from ordering the imaging test even though 9/10 times it's not needed. But the other 10% of the time, it saves the life. This just plain isn't true in general. I grew up in the US with probably the best insurance of anyone I've ever known. I've also lived in Sweden with the state-run insurance (without any private addition). I've had great care in the US. I've had great care in Sweden. In fact, my care in Sweden has honestly probably been better in my cases including where I had overuse injury to my knee due to sports where they really could just say "well quit running so much and let your body rest and leave the healthcare system to those not actively inducing their own injury", but they did not. Fast MRIs, fast diagnosis, fast help, fast everything. I understand this is entirely anecdotal, but the fact is there are many much cheaper systems out there run by governments that actually function _better_ than the US system even for those in the US with good insurance.

throwaway4220 6y ago

YMMV (as I'm sure the below comments will show you) on the efficacy of the US healthcare system. My experience ranged from 1/10 (like denying emergency care until I fought for it) to 10/10 (same-day treatment after diagnosis). Even from the supply side, I have little power on how to help even my own patients navigate the system unless it's an urgent/emergent need. It is important to hear the system is working well for some; we should focus on improving it for more people.

CoolGuySteve 6y ago

That may be true but the USSR is a collapsed state, we should be comparing wealthy countries. According to this the US is mostly in the high top 10 for outcomes in cancer and cardiovascular disease treatment outcomes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare#Outcome_of_cardiovascular_disease_care https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_o... But the US spends more than double the OECD average per capita to achieve those marginal gains: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/OECD_health_expenditure_per_capita_by_country.svg/1920px-OECD_health_expenditure_per_capita_by_country.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/OE... There's an argument to be made that the cost overruns are paying for better outcomes, or maybe the outcomes have some sample bias due to Americans being less healthy, or sicker people are seeking treatment in the US. But on the other hand, the gains are so marginal that those costs might also be due to significant corruption and regulatory capture.

xyzelement 6y ago
I didn't make this clear - I agree with you about the USSR, but the point I meant to make is that on metrics like cost and availability of care, it would look "better" than the US.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  No one who is legit just compares cost and availability they are going to also include the health levels of the nation, time to actually getting an appointment, time to get a surgery for a condition, etc. You can't just pick out two variables and say "see I'm right!" . There are a ton of European health markets that are superior to the US market when comparing multiple variables. We need to copy them or do something very similar rather than being stubborn assholes and think everything has to be home grown.

stjohnswarts 6y ago

You're being single minded here. You should compare it to what is available in Europe, Cuba, Canada, etc not what's going on in Russia. We want everyone to have good health care, not just people in silicon valley and the tech industry who by and large to get good insurance.