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Not to downplay the issue in Europe but there are 111 inmates per 100,000 people in the EU. In the US it's 698. That shows the amplitude and the spread of the
by remh 6y ago
Not to downplay the issue in Europe but there are 111 inmates per 100,000 people in the EU.
In the US it's 698.
That shows the amplitude and the spread of the carceral problem in the US.
- tyingq 6y agoThe conditions once you're in are also starkly worse in the US. More people, for longer periods, in worse living conditions.
- slumdev 6y agoThe "nonviolent drug user" inmate is as much a myth as Reagan's welfare queen. We have a crime problem, not a "carceral problem".
- watwut 6y agoAfaik, Americans do not commit 6 times more crime then Europeans.
- krspykrm 6y agoDid you bother actually looking up the data? Because intentional homicide in the US is indeed more than 6x greater than it is in places like Austria and Switzerland. There is no country in western Europe with anywhere near the violent crime rate as the US.
- watwut 6y agoYes I did. US has 3 times more murder then average EU. That is not the same as 6 times more. And some of surplus is one person killing more people, so you then have one person being in prison instead of multiple. And murder clearance rates are low anyway, so that on itself can't be reason for disparity. Switzerland has super low murders.
- slumdev 6y agoI am inclined to believe that criminal inclination is a human universal. I am also inclined to believe that the American system catches and punishes more criminals (as a percentage) than the European systems. But some disparity does seem to exist.
- halfnormalform 6y agoWe have a carceral problem despite your scare quotes and your unsupported assertions.
- slumdev 6y agoIt's not a scare quote. It's how reasonable people approach novel turns of phrase so that they don't become part of our culturally accepted common knowledge without any basis in fact.
- the_jeremy 6y agoOnly 2% of the incarcerated population has had a trial[0]. How can we even prove that there is a crime problem with that type of statistic? 0: https://github.com/MKorostoff/incarceration-in-real-numbers/blob/master/SOURCES.md#plea-bargains https://github.com/MKorostoff/incarceration-in-real-numbers/...
- smegma2 6y agoDo we have something to compare this number to? Don't we expect most crimes to not go to trial, if the convicted person agrees that they committed the crime?
- imgabe 6y agoDo they agree that they committed the crime or are they just making a tradeoff of a definite 5 years vs. a probable 25 years or something similar due to plea bargains?
- smegma2 6y agoThat's what I'm wondering, is there a way to measure how common this situation is? I'd be curious to see
- spaetzleesser 6y agoFrom what I am reading, especially in drug cases this the tradeoff a lot of people are making. Add to this being poor and lacking legal education this is a rational choice.
- the_jeremy 6y agoFrance has 4% plea bargains[0], so 96% trials. 0: http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/fellows_papers/pdf/Givati_39.pdf http://www.law.harvard.edu/programs/olin_center/fellows_pape...
- smegma2 6y agoCool, thanks for the paper. It looks interesting from the abstract.
- croissants 6y agoIt's true that most American prisoners are not "nonviolent drug user" inmates. However, around 250,000 of them are [1]. That's still a huge chunk of human life. As a side note, I think HN readers may get a lot out of reading [1], which is a pretty concise look at the American prison system and some of the facts and myths around it. [1] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html
- asphaltycode 6y agoPeople seem to forget how devastating drugs are to communities. We see it right now with meth and poor whites. It was (is?) true about African Americans and crack cocaine. There is no “legalize it” solution with these drugs. If you want to rehab low level offenders, fine. But high level offenders, the people running the operations, deserve their sentences.
- Falling3 6y ago> There is no “legalize it” solution with these drugs That's why keeping in mind the difference between legalization and decriminalization is important.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- asphaltycode 6y agoYou still need criminalization as a “stick” to either get people into rehab or not take these drugs at all.
- athms 6y agoCriminalization doesn't work. We have known this for decades. Destroying people's lives perpetuates the problem. Treat drug addiction as a public health issue and it needs to go hand-in-hand with poverty reduction.
- 6y ago
- Clubber 6y ago1/5 or 20% of people currently incarcerated are for non-violent drug use. This article tries to downplay it by reversing the statistic saying 4/5's aren't non-violent drug offenders. So about ~450k are incarcerated for non-violent drug possession in any given day. https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html Our prison inhabitants really started spiking in the 1980s, so anyone born after that doesn't know a different world other than what we have now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St...
- LatteLazy 6y agoOne of the few unchecked powers of the US president is the pardon. I never understood why Obama (now Trump) didnt just pardon all federal non violent drug offenders on the last day of his 2nd term...
- monetus 6y agoI doubt he prioritized that over the political baggage it would create for his successors or his personal life. I wish he had been inspired by carter, but politically I think this must seem riskier than those pardons. The rhetoric around why prisoners shouldn't vote seem to underly a lot of the same thinking, but I wish we knew their rationale.
- LatteLazy 6y agoPeople spend their lives scrambling for power. Then when they get it, they're out of ideas after "Tax Cuts!". Zero vision, just self interest...
- jl6 6y ago“Non violent drug offenders” is probably really hard to specify at the next level of detail.