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Facebook are too greedy. They take take take and never give anything back. It is not good for their presence in other countries. You have to give the host some

Facebook are too greedy. They take take take and never give anything back. It is not good for their presence in other countries. You have to give the host some reason to want to keep you around. But these people at Facebook think they can go to a completely foreign market, setup shop, take over a huge chunk of the advertising industry, become an influential media platform overshadowing local media outlets, and they do that while employing barely any locals and avoiding taxes too boot. I name Facebook but this is probably true of other US tech giants too. Point is, this is not a symbiotic relationship. It is no wonder the EU are not happy.

gabereiser 6y ago
It’s not even symbiotic here in the US. Facebook has a history of employing a few individuals to navigate the foreign market and then just go all in. No understanding of the local customs. See Facebook vs Myanmar. Facebook turned a blind eye to neo-nazi’s because engagement was up. Facebook is a cancer.
- A_non_e-moose 6y ago
  Facebook only maximizes profit to shareholders. Destroy Facebook and other corporation will come back to do some morally questionable or society-breaking process that maximizes profit to shareholders. The economic model of our society is the root of the problem. That is much more complex and difficult to solve or even just to talk about. It saddens me that society's trend in fast paced, low attention, immediate gratification, and devaluation or intellectual disinterest of the humanities disciplines like philosophy, politics, economics, is making it so much harder to tackle this governance and societal problem. More or different tech is not a solution.
  - mrmonkeyman 6y ago
    Exactly. The system favors, even actively promotes, certain dynamics which lead to predictable results. I have faith in humanity though. They will eventually, slowly, converge on a new optimum. Probably under the stress of painful and certain extinction, but that's just a detail.
_notreallyme_ 6y ago
It doesn't seem to be this point here. From my understanding of the proposal, they want the social media platforms (above a certain amount of connections) to be regulated like the TV is regulated: by the CSA (Audio Visual Concil). They also force the TOS to precisely explain how and when they can ban/suspend an account, give all the details about a ban/suspension, and provide a mean to appeal. They also have to appoint a contact for all legal matters with the government. This proposal is an amendment for the law against separatism that is currently reviewed at the lower house.
levosmetalo 6y ago
Honestly, given how much power big foreign companies have in many countries, I started to realize that China and to some extent Russia was right from the beginning to not allow unloyal competition from the big tech giants. For example Germany have zero benefits for letting Google, Amazon, Facebook and co. to drain profit and suffocate local competition while not paying any taxes or creating any meaningful jobs here. I wish Germany, France and the rest of EU would just push for more regulations and taxation of foreign digital companies, even if that would mean having a Great EU firewall. Remember, even the USA would not be there where it is now if they agreed to the free trade agreement with the UK back in the time after gaining the independence. They would be just a source of cheep beef and wheat for UK overlords.
- pjc50 6y ago
  > China and to some extent Russia This is why there's so much propaganda blaming George Soros for everything; his funding of the anti-totalitarian Open Society Foundation has supported all sorts of opposition and human rights NGOs which threaten the power of the Russian one-party state. The transition of the 90s succeeded in making Russia "capitalist", but not in making it democratic. Installing democracy from the outside has turned out to be a much more complicated and fraught project than first thought, partly because people can be surprisingly comfortable with totalitarianism so long as it's aimed at someone else.
  - kavalg 6y ago
    I would be curious to know your top 5 list of most democratic countries.
    - pelliphant 6y ago
      Not OP, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
  - grishka 6y ago
    The only reason Facebook has never caught on in Russia was that by the time it noticed the fact that Russia exists, we've already had VKontakte growing explosively. It missed the market opportunity, and couldn't really compete.
lvs 6y ago
These are extractive companies wherever they are operating, even in the US.
jefftk 6y ago
Facebook provides a lot of value to a lot of people: many of us find their products useful and enjoyable. Facebook is operated the same way and other countries as their home country, they don't employ many people anywhere, because the products they offer are far more efficient than the products they are replacing, and don't need many people to operate. In terms of taxes, if Facebook were avoiding taxes why wouldn't France have updated their rules already? Facebook has been operating there for over a decade. Unless you are claiming that Facebook is violating French tax law? It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently. It's sort of sounds to me like you think they should have put government ministers or their relatives on payroll to win favor, but you can't mean that? They should have hired a lot of French workers to do jobs that could instead be automated?
- chmod775 6y ago
  > Facebook provides a lot of value to a lot of people: many of us find their products useful and enjoyable. People enjoy alcohol too and alcohol isn't a net positive to society either. > It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently. Not trying to avoid taxation by incorporating in tax havens would be a pretty clear start.
  - jefftk 6y ago
    There's a distinction between the product and the company. I think France regulating the product is totally reasonable. I think France targeting something against the company in particular, because it is "extractive" is not. To extend your alcohol example, I think regulating alcohol content, labeling, distribution, advertising, are all reasonable. On the other hand, penalizing a company for manufacturing its alcohol in an automated way that employs far fewer people would not be. Are you talking about how they have their EU headquarters in Ireland? Ireland is an EU country, following EU regulations. If France or the EU want this to work differently, that's entirely within their power.
- michaelt 6y ago
  > It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently. The traditional trick to stopping the government regulating you is to figure out roughly what problems the government is considering regulation to solve, form an industry body with your competitors, then come up with a code of conduct that addresses the problems but without draconian enforcement. That way you don't have to follow rules written by politicians, get your house 100% in order, and have a regulator breathing down your neck: You've just got to follow rules you've written yourself, and get your house well enough in order that legislators have more pressing things to focus on than you. That might sound difficult - but if it was easy to run a $700 billion company, everyone would be doing it.
indymike 6y ago
The first law of being a parasite is "Never kill the host."
chrisseaton 6y ago
> But these people at Facebook think they can go to a completely foreign market, setup shop, take over a huge chunk of the advertising industry, become an influential media platform overshadowing local media outlets, and they do that while employing barely any locals and avoiding taxes too boot. If the locals don't want to use, advertise on, or consume media on Facebook then they wouldn't. If they do want to... then I guess that says it all doesn't it? Sounds like you're pissed off at your fellow citizens for using Facebook rather than at Facebook for being available. Reads like 'who do these people think they are coming along with their superior product and putting our inferior products out of business?' Also if they don't want to employ people locally then maybe look at yourselves as to why? Facebook isn't inherently opposed to offices in other countries - there's a growing one in London for example.

gabereiser 6y ago

It’s not even symbiotic here in the US. Facebook has a history of employing a few individuals to navigate the foreign market and then just go all in. No understanding of the local customs. See Facebook vs Myanmar. Facebook turned a blind eye to neo-nazi’s because engagement was up. Facebook is a cancer.

A_non_e-moose 6y ago
Facebook only maximizes profit to shareholders. Destroy Facebook and other corporation will come back to do some morally questionable or society-breaking process that maximizes profit to shareholders. The economic model of our society is the root of the problem. That is much more complex and difficult to solve or even just to talk about. It saddens me that society's trend in fast paced, low attention, immediate gratification, and devaluation or intellectual disinterest of the humanities disciplines like philosophy, politics, economics, is making it so much harder to tackle this governance and societal problem. More or different tech is not a solution.
- mrmonkeyman 6y ago
  Exactly. The system favors, even actively promotes, certain dynamics which lead to predictable results. I have faith in humanity though. They will eventually, slowly, converge on a new optimum. Probably under the stress of painful and certain extinction, but that's just a detail.

_notreallyme_ 6y ago

It doesn't seem to be this point here. From my understanding of the proposal, they want the social media platforms (above a certain amount of connections) to be regulated like the TV is regulated: by the CSA (Audio Visual Concil). They also force the TOS to precisely explain how and when they can ban/suspend an account, give all the details about a ban/suspension, and provide a mean to appeal. They also have to appoint a contact for all legal matters with the government. This proposal is an amendment for the law against separatism that is currently reviewed at the lower house.

levosmetalo 6y ago

Honestly, given how much power big foreign companies have in many countries, I started to realize that China and to some extent Russia was right from the beginning to not allow unloyal competition from the big tech giants. For example Germany have zero benefits for letting Google, Amazon, Facebook and co. to drain profit and suffocate local competition while not paying any taxes or creating any meaningful jobs here. I wish Germany, France and the rest of EU would just push for more regulations and taxation of foreign digital companies, even if that would mean having a Great EU firewall. Remember, even the USA would not be there where it is now if they agreed to the free trade agreement with the UK back in the time after gaining the independence. They would be just a source of cheep beef and wheat for UK overlords.

pjc50 6y ago
> China and to some extent Russia This is why there's so much propaganda blaming George Soros for everything; his funding of the anti-totalitarian Open Society Foundation has supported all sorts of opposition and human rights NGOs which threaten the power of the Russian one-party state. The transition of the 90s succeeded in making Russia "capitalist", but not in making it democratic. Installing democracy from the outside has turned out to be a much more complicated and fraught project than first thought, partly because people can be surprisingly comfortable with totalitarianism so long as it's aimed at someone else.
- kavalg 6y ago
  I would be curious to know your top 5 list of most democratic countries.
  - pelliphant 6y ago
    Not OP, but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
- grishka 6y ago
  The only reason Facebook has never caught on in Russia was that by the time it noticed the fact that Russia exists, we've already had VKontakte growing explosively. It missed the market opportunity, and couldn't really compete.

lvs 6y ago

These are extractive companies wherever they are operating, even in the US.

jefftk 6y ago

Facebook provides a lot of value to a lot of people: many of us find their products useful and enjoyable. Facebook is operated the same way and other countries as their home country, they don't employ many people anywhere, because the products they offer are far more efficient than the products they are replacing, and don't need many people to operate. In terms of taxes, if Facebook were avoiding taxes why wouldn't France have updated their rules already? Facebook has been operating there for over a decade. Unless you are claiming that Facebook is violating French tax law? It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently. It's sort of sounds to me like you think they should have put government ministers or their relatives on payroll to win favor, but you can't mean that? They should have hired a lot of French workers to do jobs that could instead be automated?

chmod775 6y ago
> Facebook provides a lot of value to a lot of people: many of us find their products useful and enjoyable. People enjoy alcohol too and alcohol isn't a net positive to society either. > It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently. Not trying to avoid taxation by incorporating in tax havens would be a pretty clear start.
- jefftk 6y ago
  There's a distinction between the product and the company. I think France regulating the product is totally reasonable. I think France targeting something against the company in particular, because it is "extractive" is not. To extend your alcohol example, I think regulating alcohol content, labeling, distribution, advertising, are all reasonable. On the other hand, penalizing a company for manufacturing its alcohol in an automated way that employs far fewer people would not be. Are you talking about how they have their EU headquarters in Ireland? Ireland is an EU country, following EU regulations. If France or the EU want this to work differently, that's entirely within their power.
michaelt 6y ago
> It's not clear to me what you think Facebook should do differently. The traditional trick to stopping the government regulating you is to figure out roughly what problems the government is considering regulation to solve, form an industry body with your competitors, then come up with a code of conduct that addresses the problems but without draconian enforcement. That way you don't have to follow rules written by politicians, get your house 100% in order, and have a regulator breathing down your neck: You've just got to follow rules you've written yourself, and get your house well enough in order that legislators have more pressing things to focus on than you. That might sound difficult - but if it was easy to run a $700 billion company, everyone would be doing it.

indymike 6y ago

The first law of being a parasite is "Never kill the host."

chrisseaton 6y ago

> But these people at Facebook think they can go to a completely foreign market, setup shop, take over a huge chunk of the advertising industry, become an influential media platform overshadowing local media outlets, and they do that while employing barely any locals and avoiding taxes too boot. If the locals don't want to use, advertise on, or consume media on Facebook then they wouldn't. If they do want to... then I guess that says it all doesn't it? Sounds like you're pissed off at your fellow citizens for using Facebook rather than at Facebook for being available. Reads like 'who do these people think they are coming along with their superior product and putting our inferior products out of business?' Also if they don't want to employ people locally then maybe look at yourselves as to why? Facebook isn't inherently opposed to offices in other countries - there's a growing one in London for example.