5 ms·

> his other policies (open racism, open misogyny, anti-science, etc.). The vast majority of people who vote for him do not think he has policies with these tra

> his other policies (open racism, open misogyny, anti-science, etc.). The vast majority of people who vote for him do not think he has policies with these traits. Describing his policies as "open racism", "open sexism", etc requires definitions of those terms so broad that most of the American population (and the vast majority of the world population) would also be guilty of them.

simonh 6y ago
Looking at his public statements about women I think it's clear he is a misogynist but mainly in his personal dealings. It's not really a feature of his politics. As for racism I think the Muslim Ban was a case of explicitly racist policy. I know the Supreme Court disagreed, but frankly they are wrong on this.
- nec4b 6y ago
  Being a Muslim has nothing to do with a race. You have people of all races who are Muslims.
  - simonh 6y ago
    I don't see that it makes any difference. Is discrimination based on either acceptable? If not why does it matter?
    - f1refly 6y ago
      1. You're moving goalposts 2. If discrimination by religion is not acceptable by your standards, why should discrimination based on politics be?
      - simonh 6y ago
        Goal posts? Maybe, but I don't think enough that it actually matters. I note you didn't answer my question. Nobody is being discriminated against based on politics. They are being penalised for their personal actions as individual citizens. I have commented on this in more detail elsewhere on this discussion.
    - nec4b 6y ago
      It matters a lot, because words have meanings. Can religion (ideas) be changed? Can you change your race? Did Trump discriminate against Muslims or against specific countries? Does a sovereign country have the right to refuse entry to whom it pleases within the laws?
simonh 6y ago
Looking at his public statements about women I think it's clear he is a misogynist but mainly in his personal dealings. It's not really a feature of his politics. As for racism I think the Muslim Ban was a clear case of explicitly racist policy.
- Chris2048 6y ago
  But there is a correlation wrt race and religion, so how do you distinguish? Most neo-Nazis and white supremist are white, isn't any action targeting those groups also racist? of course not; but what's the difference between that argument and the so-called "muslim ban"?
  - simonh 6y ago
    I don't really distinguish, there are technical differences but it's not as though one is ok and the other is not. Would a religion-ist ban really be any more acceptable? Either you accept that each person should be treated equally as individuals irrespective of such characteristics, or you don't. Neo-Nazis are not targeted under the law for being Neo-Nazis. They are targeted for individual criminal acts they perform personally, or conspire to perform together. Some small groups have been outlawed in some countries, but only in the same way that criminal gangs such as the Mafia or other terrorist organisations are targeted. That is in no way comparable to targeting "Muslims". The mistake you are making is to conflate the criminal act with the motivation for that act. Setting a bomb or shooting someone because you are a Neo-Nazi does not mean that if someone prosecutes you they are doing so because you are a Neo-Nazi. They are doing it because of the bomb or the shooting. This is the mistake the MAGA crowd on the Capitol were making when they were surprised and shocked that the police didn't come over to their side. It's a characteristic of racism that it conflates group identity with individual identity, and it's also why I am vehemently opposed to far left identity politics which makes exactly the same mistake. They may be on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but wing nuts generally are susceptible to the same cognitive failure modes.
    - Chris2048 6y ago

simonh 6y ago

Looking at his public statements about women I think it's clear he is a misogynist but mainly in his personal dealings. It's not really a feature of his politics. As for racism I think the Muslim Ban was a case of explicitly racist policy. I know the Supreme Court disagreed, but frankly they are wrong on this.

nec4b 6y ago
Being a Muslim has nothing to do with a race. You have people of all races who are Muslims.
- simonh 6y ago
  I don't see that it makes any difference. Is discrimination based on either acceptable? If not why does it matter?
  - f1refly 6y ago
    1. You're moving goalposts 2. If discrimination by religion is not acceptable by your standards, why should discrimination based on politics be?
    - simonh 6y ago
      Goal posts? Maybe, but I don't think enough that it actually matters. I note you didn't answer my question. Nobody is being discriminated against based on politics. They are being penalised for their personal actions as individual citizens. I have commented on this in more detail elsewhere on this discussion.
  - nec4b 6y ago
    It matters a lot, because words have meanings. Can religion (ideas) be changed? Can you change your race? Did Trump discriminate against Muslims or against specific countries? Does a sovereign country have the right to refuse entry to whom it pleases within the laws?

simonh 6y ago

Chris2048 6y ago
But there is a correlation wrt race and religion, so how do you distinguish? Most neo-Nazis and white supremist are white, isn't any action targeting those groups also racist? of course not; but what's the difference between that argument and the so-called "muslim ban"?
- simonh 6y ago
  I don't really distinguish, there are technical differences but it's not as though one is ok and the other is not. Would a religion-ist ban really be any more acceptable? Either you accept that each person should be treated equally as individuals irrespective of such characteristics, or you don't. Neo-Nazis are not targeted under the law for being Neo-Nazis. They are targeted for individual criminal acts they perform personally, or conspire to perform together. Some small groups have been outlawed in some countries, but only in the same way that criminal gangs such as the Mafia or other terrorist organisations are targeted. That is in no way comparable to targeting "Muslims". The mistake you are making is to conflate the criminal act with the motivation for that act. Setting a bomb or shooting someone because you are a Neo-Nazi does not mean that if someone prosecutes you they are doing so because you are a Neo-Nazi. They are doing it because of the bomb or the shooting. This is the mistake the MAGA crowd on the Capitol were making when they were surprised and shocked that the police didn't come over to their side. It's a characteristic of racism that it conflates group identity with individual identity, and it's also why I am vehemently opposed to far left identity politics which makes exactly the same mistake. They may be on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but wing nuts generally are susceptible to the same cognitive failure modes.
  - Chris2048 6y ago