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The current situation is very complex. The main issue is that people who say Trump is lying is mostly Trump's opposition. From an observer, it becomes difficu

The current situation is very complex. The main issue is that people who say Trump is lying is mostly Trump's opposition. From an observer, it becomes difficult to know what is exaggerated, what is true, and what is not. But then if we have a due process for this, that will essentially be the ministry of truth. If we don't, then it just looks like one side just accuses the other side endlessly.

rileymat2 6y ago
> The main issue is that people who say Trump is lying is mostly Trump's opposition. There are a range of fact checkers who stake their reputation on trying the best they can to avoid bias, look at those sources and you will see this is not the case. Also, the government already gets heavily involved in determining the truth without any ministry in the form of slander and liable trials. One of the more controversial released calls was with Georgia Republican election officials trying to tell him that there was not fraud.
- Gibbon1 6y ago
  You're kinda pointing I think in the correct direction. There are different kind of facts. In this case the fact is a legal fact. One generated via the electoral process and subject to rulings by the courts, and certification by the legislative branch. The electoral system and the courts have ruled universally that Trump lost. That system is made up of offices held by all the various factions. So the legal fact is Biden won the election. That's it. Saying otherwise is lying, saying it's debatable is also lying.
- ragebol 6y ago
  Problem then is: the believers of lies simply do not trust (an certain topics at least) the unbiased sources. I've been thinking about augmenting social networks with some measure of trust (eg. express that I trust my uncle 90% when it comes to car repairs but 5% when it comes to vaccines). But then eventually, we'll see N groups again. Nothing new there. But maybe by expressing trust(-per-topic) new misinformation will spread less quickly?
kumarvvr 6y ago
> The main issue is that people who say Trump is lying is mostly Trump's opposition A lot of Republican & trump supporters objected to his lies and issued public statements to that effect. Also, it doesn't matter if the person is a trump hater, the thing that matters is the facts. Stop the steal is the lie, because, in the numerous cases filed by trump, they have never produced any evidence.
gizmo686 6y ago
A ministry of truth is created when you have an organization that is deplatforming and/or censoring content. That is where we are right now; a small number of big tech companies are acting as a ministry of truth. Due process is a mechanism to check the power of large organizations. It does not create a ministry of truth, it restrains it. In fairness to big tech; they have been restrained thus far (at least as far as the current political issues are concerned), but the lack of due process is concerning because if the ministry of truth decides to become more aggressive, there is no mechanism to restrain it.
- saargrin 6y ago
  except as we have seen , the executive has a lot of power in selection of personnel for the offices that will oversee the censorship what if in addition to supreme court judges, Trump would have been able to create a "truth certification" body and pack it with his Betsy DeVos type cronies?
mhh__ 6y ago
Just because two people say two different things doesn't mean there isn't an objective answer most of the time. He lied about his tax returns repeatedly and consistently, despite it being either obviously false (can't release them under audit bs) or disproven later when they were eventually made public.
diragon 6y ago
>The main issue is that people who say Trump is lying is mostly Trump's opposition. It is indeed an issue that not more people are calling Trump what he is: a liar. How do we make telling the truth socially profitable again?

rileymat2 6y ago

> The main issue is that people who say Trump is lying is mostly Trump's opposition. There are a range of fact checkers who stake their reputation on trying the best they can to avoid bias, look at those sources and you will see this is not the case. Also, the government already gets heavily involved in determining the truth without any ministry in the form of slander and liable trials. One of the more controversial released calls was with Georgia Republican election officials trying to tell him that there was not fraud.

Gibbon1 6y ago
You're kinda pointing I think in the correct direction. There are different kind of facts. In this case the fact is a legal fact. One generated via the electoral process and subject to rulings by the courts, and certification by the legislative branch. The electoral system and the courts have ruled universally that Trump lost. That system is made up of offices held by all the various factions. So the legal fact is Biden won the election. That's it. Saying otherwise is lying, saying it's debatable is also lying.
ragebol 6y ago
Problem then is: the believers of lies simply do not trust (an certain topics at least) the unbiased sources. I've been thinking about augmenting social networks with some measure of trust (eg. express that I trust my uncle 90% when it comes to car repairs but 5% when it comes to vaccines). But then eventually, we'll see N groups again. Nothing new there. But maybe by expressing trust(-per-topic) new misinformation will spread less quickly?

kumarvvr 6y ago

> The main issue is that people who say Trump is lying is mostly Trump's opposition A lot of Republican & trump supporters objected to his lies and issued public statements to that effect. Also, it doesn't matter if the person is a trump hater, the thing that matters is the facts. Stop the steal is the lie, because, in the numerous cases filed by trump, they have never produced any evidence.

gizmo686 6y ago

A ministry of truth is created when you have an organization that is deplatforming and/or censoring content. That is where we are right now; a small number of big tech companies are acting as a ministry of truth. Due process is a mechanism to check the power of large organizations. It does not create a ministry of truth, it restrains it. In fairness to big tech; they have been restrained thus far (at least as far as the current political issues are concerned), but the lack of due process is concerning because if the ministry of truth decides to become more aggressive, there is no mechanism to restrain it.

saargrin 6y ago
except as we have seen , the executive has a lot of power in selection of personnel for the offices that will oversee the censorship what if in addition to supreme court judges, Trump would have been able to create a "truth certification" body and pack it with his Betsy DeVos type cronies?

mhh__ 6y ago

Just because two people say two different things doesn't mean there isn't an objective answer most of the time. He lied about his tax returns repeatedly and consistently, despite it being either obviously false (can't release them under audit bs) or disproven later when they were eventually made public.

diragon 6y ago

>The main issue is that people who say Trump is lying is mostly Trump's opposition. It is indeed an issue that not more people are calling Trump what he is: a liar. How do we make telling the truth socially profitable again?