3 ms·

> WW2 legacy resulted in two major additions to the foundations of new Germany: spying on citizens is highly regulated How does it reconcile with it taking nea

> WW2 legacy resulted in two major additions to the foundations of new Germany: spying on citizens is highly regulated How does it reconcile with it taking nearly 17 years for Germany to outlaw BND from wiretapping DE-CIX?

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago
It is a valid point. I would normally argue that foundation of the law and its implementation are two different issues. Not to mention, over time, previous norms can be eroded.
corty 6y ago
BND is not a private organisation but a part of the federal government. They are a secret service. That's why they can get away with it, they cannot be fined, sued or even investigated properly in such matters. And while one of the lessons of Nazi Germany is keeping the secret services on a tight leash, that leash has become longer and longer during the cold war. Nowadays, I do not think there is any effective control of Germany's secret services anymore.
confiq 6y ago
for these who don't know what OP is talking about, TIL https://netzpolitik.org/2015/how-the-german-foreign-intelligence-agency-bnd-tapped-the-internet-exchange-point-de-cix-in-frankfurt-since-2009/ https://netzpolitik.org/2015/how-the-german-foreign-intellig...
hulitu 6y ago
> > WW2 legacy resulted in two major additions to the foundations of new Germany: spying on citizens is highly regulated > How does it reconcile with it taking nearly 17 years for Germany to outlaw BND from wiretapping DE-CIX? He said only that "is regulated". This is the same like "CIA/NSA/FBI must obey the law". They actually do what they want. (Now the NSA is wiretapping DE-CIX and giving the info to BND)
ArnoVW 6y ago
Just because private entities are bound by certain laws does not mean that those laws apply to the state. The state has other laws that regulate its ability to spy on its citizens. And if those laws become too cumbersome you can always ask a free friendly nation to do your spying for you, and get the info from them. And then cross your fingers that the judiciary will follow yout reasoning when you are found out.
- josefx 6y ago
  The problem is that citing WW2 as reason when the state is excluded from the laws is nonsensical. In WW2 and later the GDR the state was the bad actor, that private companies are restricted from gathering this information would not have stopped the Nazies.
  - ArnoVW 6y ago
    The state does not have different laws because of WW2. It has different laws because it has a different role and obligations than a private individual. We allow the state to levy taxes, expropriate, imprison, and even kill (war, death sentence) because we have democratically decided that it was necessary for the organisation of our society.

A4ET8a8uTh0 6y ago

It is a valid point. I would normally argue that foundation of the law and its implementation are two different issues. Not to mention, over time, previous norms can be eroded.

corty 6y ago

BND is not a private organisation but a part of the federal government. They are a secret service. That's why they can get away with it, they cannot be fined, sued or even investigated properly in such matters. And while one of the lessons of Nazi Germany is keeping the secret services on a tight leash, that leash has become longer and longer during the cold war. Nowadays, I do not think there is any effective control of Germany's secret services anymore.

confiq 6y ago

for these who don't know what OP is talking about, TIL https://netzpolitik.org/2015/how-the-german-foreign-intelligence-agency-bnd-tapped-the-internet-exchange-point-de-cix-in-frankfurt-since-2009/ https://netzpolitik.org/2015/how-the-german-foreign-intellig...

hulitu 6y ago

> > WW2 legacy resulted in two major additions to the foundations of new Germany: spying on citizens is highly regulated > How does it reconcile with it taking nearly 17 years for Germany to outlaw BND from wiretapping DE-CIX? He said only that "is regulated". This is the same like "CIA/NSA/FBI must obey the law". They actually do what they want. (Now the NSA is wiretapping DE-CIX and giving the info to BND)

ArnoVW 6y ago

Just because private entities are bound by certain laws does not mean that those laws apply to the state. The state has other laws that regulate its ability to spy on its citizens. And if those laws become too cumbersome you can always ask a free friendly nation to do your spying for you, and get the info from them. And then cross your fingers that the judiciary will follow yout reasoning when you are found out.

josefx 6y ago
The problem is that citing WW2 as reason when the state is excluded from the laws is nonsensical. In WW2 and later the GDR the state was the bad actor, that private companies are restricted from gathering this information would not have stopped the Nazies.
- ArnoVW 6y ago
  The state does not have different laws because of WW2. It has different laws because it has a different role and obligations than a private individual. We allow the state to levy taxes, expropriate, imprison, and even kill (war, death sentence) because we have democratically decided that it was necessary for the organisation of our society.